Return-Path: Message-Id: <9208250319.AA04862@relay1.UU.NET> Date: Tue Aug 25 13:57:05 1992 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: Examples of unambiguous nonsense? X-To: jrk@INFORMATION-SYSTEMS.EAST-ANGLIA.AC.UK X-Cc: loglanists@uscd.edu, lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan Status: RO X-From-Space-Date: Tue Aug 25 13:57:05 1992 X-From-Space-Address: cbmvax!uunet!cuvmb.bitnet!LOJBAN The obvious kinds of nonsense can be easily said in English, but will tend to cause a double take: le cmana cu klama la muxamad. The mountain comes to Mohammed. If one gets really weird, the English double-take gets strained to the breaking point: le cmana cu klama la muxamad. fu lo karce The mountain comes to Mohammed by car. Another area where ambiguityu causes nonsense to be thrown out is what we have called sumti-raising in Lojban. mi troci lenu le vorme cu kalri I try the event that the door is open. (by me?) ??? mi troci le vorme I try the door. Since the x2 of troci is an event that x1 is trying to bring about, the English is a very boor translation, though a literal one. IN this case the door is an 'event' that is tried (in TLI Loglan terms "le po darto" perhaps, but stated instead as "le darto"). Since doors are not events, this is nonsense in both Lojban and English (and TLI Loglan). But you CAN say it in Lojban and at least try to figure out what it means. Most importantly, and this I believe is the claim that JCB traditionally made, you can manipulate this statement logically, whether it has a useful meaning or not. In English, I can think of no clear way to even explain how le vorme/(le darto) in an event clause differs from "le nu vorme"(le po darto) in a place struture that expects an event clause in that place. It is sayable in Loglan/Lojban, but not really in English. Note that Lojban has the feature no present in TLI Loglan of allowing such an argument to be 'raised' after the manner of natural languages, while still preserving its proper semantic level. The marker "tu'a" specifies an event such that the argument so marked is a place therein. Thus mi troci tu'a le vorme I try (that) the door (does something; i.e. becomes open). which is a short way of saying mi troci lenu le vorme cu kalri binxo I try the event the door open-becomes which I think in TLI Loglan is mi trati lepo le darto ga kapni cenba ButL1 does not indicate any way for TLI Loglan to do the equivalent of tu'a. There certainly has been a lot of historical misuse of place structures in the Loglan community to try saying the longer expression using the shorter mi troci le vorme/mi trati le darto, but such misabbreviation spoils the ability to have the shorter expression properly be interpreted as its nonsensical actual denotation. ---- lojbab lojbab@grebyn.com Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 For information about the artificial language Loglan/Lojban, please provide a paper-mail address to me via mail or phone. We also have limited introductory information available electronically. The LLG is funded solely by your contributions, which are encouraged for the purpose of defraying our costs (for both electronic and paper distribution.)