From @uga.cc.uga.edu:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Mon Sep 21 11:07:29 1992 Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Mon, 21 Sep 1992 11:07:28 -0400 Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6796; Mon, 21 Sep 92 11:06:16 EDT Received: by UGA (Mailer R2.08 PTF008) id 8186; Mon, 21 Sep 92 11:06:15 EDT Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1992 16:07:33 BST Reply-To: C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK Sender: Lojban list From: C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK Subject: Re: TECH.QUERY: zo bancu cu mo zo zmadu leka smuni X-To: lojbab@GREBYN.COM To: Erik Rauch Status: RO X-Status: Message-ID: <15IfOKWyaSI.A.HlC.w80kLB@chain.digitalkingdom.org> > > The question between zmadu and bancu is NOT the x3 place, which they share, > but the x4 place that they don't. I am not sure that your version of the > statement using zmadu is as clear as the same statement using bancu. The > x4 place that you did not supply may not be meaningful, even if there is > a way to define its value (certainly mathematicians/geometers can tell how > much more distant the tree is from you than the fence. But the essential > claim is that the tree is on the other side of the fence and not that it is > more distant from you than the fence. Hmm. Indeed, the fence might be in a > different direction from you than the tree, and closer to you, and the s > statement involving zmadu would be true, but not the statement involving > bancu. Thus bancu ==> zmadu but not necessarily vice versa. I think that we are running into a problem with generality of definition. It seems to me that le tricu cu bancu le bitmu is not very meaningful with the current definition of bancu, unless given a context that implies distance. There is no reason whatever why this should not mean "The tree is taller than the fence", and with somewhat lower probability "prettier". I think we are getting misled by the English keyword "beyond" into supposing that we are talking of spatial position (the primary meaning of "beyond"). It seems to me that the distinction you are claiming between "zmadu" and "bancu" is that the measurements are not only comparable with the specified result, but also in some sense "in the same direction" (whatever that might mean for non-spatial uses). But I do not like you using an spatial example and then arguing from the special spatial properties of the example. I accept that there is a semantic difference between the two gismu. I cannot see why "bancu" shouldn't have an x4. And I would encourage people to use a lujvo for a specifically spatial sense of 'beyond'. Colin