From LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu Sat Mar 6 23:00:59 2010 Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Tue, 22 Sep 1992 08:10:04 -0400 Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3132; Tue, 22 Sep 92 08:08:51 EDT Received: by UGA (Mailer R2.08 PTF008) id 4278; Tue, 22 Sep 92 08:08:49 EDT Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1992 07:58:40 -0500 Reply-To: vilva@viikki21.helsinki.fi Sender: Lojban list From: VILVA@VIIKKI21.HELSINKI.FI Subject: CAFE: Summary X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Erik Rauch Status: RO X-Status: X-From-Space-Date: Tue Sep 22 08:10:06 1992 X-From-Space-Address: @uga.cc.uga.edu:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Message-ID: _A Summary of the Present State of The Ckafybarja Project_ I have collected all the postings concerning the Project and the first submitted Lojban stories. The total volume of the postings (excluding the mail headers) has already exceeded 200kb. Probably very few of us have read through all this material and are fully aware of the situation. Also quite many new people have started following the list during the last few weeks and almost certainly have only a very vague notion about what's going on. I have prepared a condensed version of 'The Ckafybarja Papers' which I'll post separately. This version (about 40kb) contains edited postings pertaining to the background and the English descriptions of the Cafe. This posting tries to summarize the present stage of the project. I'll not go into details as they are available in the Papers. *************** Note: this is NOT an official document of the LLG. The views presented are my personal views. *************** The Purpose of The Ckafybarja Project The purpose of the project is to encourage people to create original Lojban stories which have the following common features: - as already stated the stories are ORIGINAL Lojban stories, not translations from other languages - they are closely connected with a coffeehouse which is described in detail in a set of English documentation available to all - the stories either take place or are told in the Cafe The proposed Cafe Newsletter would widen the scope of material eligible for publication and make it easier for the beginning Lojban writers to produce something worthwhile. History The project has gone through several stages during the last two months. There were some preliminary postings concerning the lack of Lojban text -- especially original text, not translations from other languages. It was also noted that actually very few people did produce Lojban text or use Lojban in communicating with other Lojbanists. The ideas culminating in the project were formulated during the summer LogFests and the ensuing discussions on the net. _The Lojban Canterbury Tales_ The first LogFest formulated the idea of encouraging people to write original Lojban stories with some common features. The basic idea was that there would be a place were people would gather to tell stories to each other like in the original Canterbury Tales or in The Decameron. The Finnish national epic Kalevala was also mentioned as a possible source of ideas and there were some off-line discussions concerning the possibilities. The parts of these conversations which affected the development of the Project are included in the Papers. The discussions were at a very general level and nothing concrete was done at this stage. The name 'Kalevala' was used in the headers of most of the postings which gave rise to the first name of the project proper. _The Lojban Kalevala Project_ ==> _The Ckafybarja Project_ At the second LogFest the Cafe idea was adopted and also the idea of having a detailed description of the locale and the personnel. This description would be in English in order to be readily accessible to everybody. It would serve two main purposes: 1) the stories by various writers would obviously describe the same Cafe 2) the less creative writers would be able to concentrate on the plot instead of also having to invent the settings Three different settings were described but the description #2 was the favourite already before the plan was posted and there was actually no further discussion on the net. There were differences of opinion concerning various aspects of the description. Most of these have been resolved but some are in limbo and some are waiting comment from the non-netters. The 'Kalevala' was quite soon dropped from the name of the project as there was no actual reason for the reference. I proposed the name 'la jbotur' instead but it was never adopted by anybody else. The name of the Cafe has been 'la jbolaz' for a while but this has turned out to be ungrammatical. Controversies When the Cafe Project proposal (The Lojban Kalevala Project) was posted on the net there was some disagreement concerning various aspects of the plan. The main reason for this was the fact that none of the most active netters had participated in the initial formulation. Some of the ideas presented on the net contradicted the original plan so some non-netters felt that the very active netters were trying to dominate. The views of the netters (or of the most vocal of them) were presented to the non-netters but there has been no response yet. The conversation on the net has quieted down. The most controversial question was the characterization of the Cafe personnel -- especially the proposed national heterogeneity. The main views presented are included in the Condensed Papers and I am not going to reiterate them here. As far as I can see this question is still open -- in all the others at least some kind of a consensus was achieved. Basic Settings A more detailed description of the settings is included in the Condensed Papers. The Cafe A small cafe in rural surroundings (not visible from the inside). Predominantly Lojbanic clientele gathers there to tell stories. Some netters have already arrived. Nick advises to avoid interaction for the time being (c.f. Cond. Pap.) The Personnel Multinational personnel, Chinese manager and 5 others representing the source languages of Lojban. Detailed characterization isn't available yet so avoid adding details in the stories. All the views presented on the net concerning the characterization ought to be studied most carefully by all potential writers. We need well thought out characterizations which take into account the views presented by Ivan and others concerning the difficulty of realistically portraying national characteristics and the need to have recognizably non-American characters as desired by lojbab and some non-netters. Mark pointed out that the characters must be such that also the later writers can live with them. They are basically background characters but many writers may want to use them in their stories. Others may choose to ignore them in which case the characterizations don't really matter very much. Accumulated Material English Descriptions There isn't very much new descriptive material as the project hasn't actually started yet -- in spite of the posting of the first preparatory Lojban texts. Nick Nicholas has added detail to the original Description #2 of the locale and David Bowen has described a Cafe manager. These descriptions are contained in the Condensed Papers. Lojban Text Altogether 5 Lojban stories have been posted -- a proper story by Mark Shoulson, a longish 'rant' by Nick Nicholas, 2 short 'etudes' by Veijo Vilva and a short story by Iain Alexander. Only the story by Mark contains storytelling along the lines indicated in the plan, the others are more preparatory. These stories have resulted in a very active conversation on the net concerning various linguistic aspects -- both grammatical and semantico-pragmatical. One very challenging task for the future is the collection, editing and publication of the accumulating theoretical material so that the results of these conversations can be utilized by the whole Lojban community. The Newsletter Proposal Nick Nicholas posted a proposal concerning a Cafe Newsletter which would publish all kinds of Lojban text connected with the Cafe. The proposal is included in the Condensed Papers. Widening the Scope The newsletter would actually widen the scope of the Lojban texts compared to the original plan. The original plan called for stories about the Cafe or stories told at the Cafe -- the Newsletter would accept all kinds of original Lojban text connected with the Cafe, e.g. small studies like my 'etudes' would be eligible for publication. This would be the first purely Lojban journal -- all the theoretical material with English explanations and glosses would be published in the JL as would selected Lojban writings not connected with the Cafe. The main purpose of the Newsletter would be to encourage and help beginning writers. The second raison d'etre would be to show that we have advanced so far that Lojban can be used without English glosses. Perhaps the most advanced stories wouldn't be accessible to everybody but there would probably be a much greater number of easy and intermediate articles. I also think that having the stories without English glosses would be advantageous as the structure of Lojban -- especially 'Lojbanic' Lojban -- is so different that providing an English version may actually hinder understanding or at least slow down the learning. __To would-be writers__ 1. start writing NOW 2. don't set goals that are too ambitious. Remember that the published stories DO NOT set a standard which you ought to match. Your first stories can be very short and use simple sentences. Here is my first attempt: le la vei,on ckafybarja srinuntroci xipa xici ni'o sriku'a .i ckafybarja .i mi zvati le vorstu gi'e terpanci loi ckafi da.uicai .i mi ca ze'upunai.oi sumne da .i mi dzukla le jbustu gi'e ctacarna .i rancindu jubme .i seldandu lo vrici to'erninda'i noi mi na djuno zo'e ke'a .i selzvati ji'ipano zutse remna .i srotanxe loi ckafi lei mudri .i vrici .i mi visyfacki fi pa lo poi loi remna na zutlamji ke'a ku'o jubme goi ko'a .i mi co'a zutlamji ko'a .i ko'a lamji le nunjupca'u .i le jukpa cu selviska gi'e jupfinti de.a'ucu'i .i mi pensi.a'e loi selpinxe co ckafi.au .i ckafypanci fi mi.ui .i ckafypanci .i .ui.o'u .i sriku'a 3. start with simple things, do experiments with the language. Try to avoid formulating the ideas in English -- otherwise you may have difficulties with astonishingly simple expressions. 4. You may find to your surprise that it is often actually easier to express something in Lojban because you don't have to cope with the relatively free structure of English. Just drop the words to the proper slots and the unambiguous grammar of Lojban takes care of the rest. 5. don't force yourself to invent a story -- it doesn't work. The story either comes or not. Pick up something and start writing about it -- but do it now. 6. the story isn't very important at this stage. It may be quite banal or even non-existent -- if you find a Lojbanic way of expressing something, write it down. 7. there is no stylistic tradition, you are completely free -- within the dictates of the grammar, of course. If you end up expressing your thoughts in a way which doesn't resemble anything you ever read, it's quite alright. 8. don't be afraid of simple sentences. Lojban IS different. Writing a complex sentence which doesn't fall apart doesn't prove you know Lojban well -- it is just a trivial exercise. Don't write a sentence which you can't readily understand yourself -- even next week. You ought to be able to understand your sentences without parsing/analyzing/ translating -- at least the structure even if you don't remember all the words you had to pick from the word lists. 9. it doesn't matter if you can't find a natural English way of expressing the idea of a sentence. Lojban IS different. A tanru, a lujvo, a sumti with attachments, a {ko} at a unaccustomed position may all be very difficult to express naturally in English. Just accept it. Utilize it. 10. start writing ------------------------------------------------------------------ Veijo Vilva vilva@viikki21.helsinki.fi