From @uga.cc.uga.edu:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Fri Dec 4 09:10:02 1992 Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Fri, 4 Dec 1992 14:09:25 -0500 Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3771; Fri, 04 Dec 92 14:05:56 EST Received: from UGA.BITNET by UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (Mailer R2.08 PTF008) with BSMTP id 4799; Fri, 04 Dec 92 14:05:55 EST Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1992 14:10:02 EST Reply-To: Marquis de Freud Sender: Lojban list From: Marquis de Freud Subject: The Sensuous Tanru X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Erik Rauch Status: RO X-Status: Message-ID: I think that the tanru problem will never be completely solved. That is part of the nature of language. Language is a descriptive (or circumscriptive) system, NOT a formal system. Lojban, I think, carries a lot of undesirable "baggage" due to its original purpose of reducing ambiguity. But carry these arguments just ONE level of abstraction deeper, and we get into the realm of linguistic epistimology, which is what this may hinge on. Language may be like the irrational numbers, and Lojban may be an attempt to apply a successive-approximation model to the problem. But I agree, some ambiguity- resolution system *is* necessary. I just thought that it already existed in Lojban -- the grouping cmavo. Most people will use the shortest, dirtiest form a grammar will allow unless the communication becomes unintelligible. THEN, the speaker will elaborate with the more codified grammar. cmalu nixle ckule I would automatically "interpret" that as a school FOR girls, due to built in cultural assumptions. The cmalu part would be a little more difficult, because both girls and schools can be small. cmalu nixle ke ckule That's more like it -- for the Tiny Tots Happy Times Nursery School. cmalu ke nixle ckule For St. Alphonso's Private Academy for Young Women of Impeccable Breeding. As for the use of "je", I had been under the impression that it was for joining separate elements of a tanru without having to mix them. nixli je nanla ke ckule Now for the *tough* parts -- One of the first lujvo I made was "xlipe'o". I was trying to render the idea of one's unmarried female companion toward which one has feelings similar to which one would have toward a child. No fewer than FIVE people called me on that one, in spite of the fact that "girlfriend" and "boyfriend" are clearly metaphorical, and that nearly every language makes use of such child-words for conveying a neotenous (child-imitating) relationship. So what is the difference between a nixli and a ninmu? Suppose one was 15 and one's beau was 13 1/2? As for lycanthropes, which is "more important"? lo remna labno --or-- lo labno remna May Cevnis help us if Wolfman Jack decides he wants to learn Lojban! Then there is "wife" (no wise-zargu remarks about my choice of examples, please!) -- Is this a "ninspe" or a "speni'u"? Of course, I would *group* the tanru elements, and if the lycanthrope (Greek for labno remna) or the wife wants to correct me, fine. For example,all my previously Black friends are now my African American friends. Some -- many -- tanru will be action - oriented. lo remna cusku (human expressor) / lo cusku remna (expressive human) le prami kansa (the love partner) / le kansa prami (the partner-lover) le darxi fengu (the hitting angry-one) / le fengu darxi (angry hitter) also note -- le darxi stedu (the head FOR hitting) / le stedu darxi (the head WHICH hits) To finish up, I think that since all language is metaphoric on some level (though this is usually the realm of semiotics and deconstructionist linguistics) it is the function of grammatical elaboration to disambiguate. I agree with John Cowan that some resolution is needed, but also with Art Protin -- it's the non-tanru elements that do the work. While it may parse mechanically, a patently absurd statement will be rejected by a speaker, and the less cognitively dissonant forms will be the automatic default meanings, unless there is a VERY intense amount of grammar behind the difference. Language and meaning may be like playing marbles on a pitted surface. They will tend toward the pits and away from the mounds. Unless the tanruic "pits and mounds" are over-ridden by grouping cmavo, the internal topology will prevail. Well, it's two in the afternoon, WAY past my bedtime. I'll get you all for this someday! co'o mi'e la .deived tueris.