From @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Wed Apr 3 04:46:42 1993 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 31 Mar 1993 15:48:05 -0500 Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0687; Wed, 31 Mar 93 15:46:44 EST Received: from CUVMB.BITNET by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 0049; Wed, 31 Mar 93 15:47:31 EST Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993 12:46:42 -0800 Reply-To: jimc@MATH.UCLA.EDU Sender: Lojban list From: jimc@MATH.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: TECH: grammar updates X-To: lojban@cuvmb.columbia.edu To: Erik Rauch In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 30 Mar 93 14:22:08 +1000." <9303301604.AA01431@julia.math.ucla.edu> Status: OR Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1993 14:22:08 +1000 > From: Nick Nicholas > ... And if we admit that not > all concepts can be expressed with gismu and cmavo, and that some lujvo > (like that of battery) can have their place structure arise ex nihilo... > well, I'd worry. It may not be a disaster, but I think we've all been > assuming the Gismu Deep Structure Hypothesis, we've all been assuming > all lujvo can be paraphrased as tanru can be paraphrased (ta'unai) as > gismu deep strcutures; an admission that they can't would greatly change > our attitudes to lujvo making. "I wandered lonely as a cloud..." I think the essence of metaphor is that the relation alleged is completely outside the official meaning of the words involved, but not as random noise; the juxtaposition of seemingly unrelated elements illuminates the main bridi relation so that the listener can grasp what aspect or unexpected relation the speaker is trying to express. I also think that JCB believed that every tanru was and should be interpreted as an actual metaphor -- the opposite of my "diktanru" stance. Paraphrasing lujvo -> tanru -> gismu deep structure is, to my mind, very useful and quite vital to make lujvo work -- but it's also important to leave a mechanism so people can say actual metaphors. At present the tanru structure is officially designated as that mechanism, following TLI Loglan. My preference is to require a cmavo along the lines of {bo} to join the elements of a true metaphor, while the unmarked tanru is interpreted according to the Gismu Deep Structure Hypothesis. James F. Carter Voice 310 825 2897 FAX 310 206 6673 UCLA-Mathnet; 6221 MSA; 405 Hilgard Ave.; Los Angeles, CA, USA 90024-1555 Internet: jimc@math.ucla.edu BITNET: jimc%math.ucla.edu@INTERBIT UUCP:...!{ucsd,ames,ncar,gatech,purdue,rutgers,decvax,uunet}!math.ucla.edu!jimc