From @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Wed Mar 3 06:35:52 1993 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 3 Mar 1993 13:55:52 -0500 Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1442; Wed, 03 Mar 93 13:52:11 EST Received: from CUVMB.BITNET by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 2901; Wed, 03 Mar 93 13:57:24 EST Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1993 11:35:52 -0500 Reply-To: John Cowan Sender: Lojban list From: John Cowan Subject: Posting from Geral Koenig X-To: Lojban List To: Erik Rauch In-Reply-To: <9303030041.AA08325@socal.com> from "Gerald Koenig" at Mar 2, 93 04:41:15 pm Status: OR Message-ID: I received this in private mail with a request to post it. I have done so after making minor formatting adjustments. Properties and Events In the spirit of exploration in your posting, I throw out to you the following ideas. The reason we cannot clearly distinguish between properties and events is that there is no essential difference. If we think of the atomic world or the universe there are only events. JCB's deletion of time from an event, which is then called a fact, is not an option in the real world. Properties can be thought of as sine qua non sumti for concepts. A center and a radius are properties of a circle. They are also events in the drawing of a circle. We wouldn't think the color of the ink would be a property in the circle concept. If some culture wanted to establish an Xn place for color of the circle, then to that culture it is a property. In Lojban it would seem we are trying to use archetypes or universally used sumti for our gismu. As to JCB's "event" motherhood vs. "property" motherhood, I must say again that the ka or pu property-motherhood as he defines it puts us into some kind of magical timeless world. If anyone can tell me how to get there I will be among the first to buy a ticket. With JCB, I like to think of property abstractions as lean or not multiplying entities more than necessary. I like to think of event abstractions as focusing on a personally selected set of arguments for a predicate. I like to think of properties as predicates with few arguments, which change slowly over time, and events as predicates with many arguments and an emphasis on transformation. I view a property as a slowly occuring event. So ka and nu are the same grammatically. Regarding zmadu and the lost "<" and">", I regard the x3 of zmadu as being a proper place for the units of the thing being measured. It is like carrying the units along in a physics calculation. If you can go along with the idea of units being always operationally defined, then they are an event or property and fit well into the X3 spaceholder. Like this: li vo zmadu li ci lo nu kancu 4 is greater than 3 in the event of counting. This is for integers (counting numbers). li vo zmadu li ci lo nu cimde 4 is greater than 3 in the event of measurement. This is for floating point numbers. I hope this makes sense to you or triggers some creative thoughts. My heartfelt gratitude goes out to you in the very difficult task of perfecting Lojban. -- Jerry Koenig jkoenig@hatch.socal.com