From LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU  Sat Mar  6 22:52:38 2010
Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Fri, 23 Apr 1993 08:03:26 -0400
Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)    with BSMTP id 8662; Fri, 23 Apr 93 08:03:04 EDT
Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with  BSMTP id 5993; Fri, 23 Apr 93 08:03:48 EST
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 12:57:34 BST
Reply-To: Ivan A Derzhanski <iad@COGSCI.ED.AC.UK>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU>
From: Ivan A Derzhanski <iad@COGSCI.ED.AC.UK>
Subject:      le'avla (was: version declaration for le lojbau)
To: Erik Rauch <erikr@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>
In-Reply-To:  C.J.Fine@BRADFORD's message of Fri,               23 Apr 1993 10:08:46 BST <6143.9304230918@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Status: OR
X-From-Space-Date: Fri Apr 23 08:03:26 1993
X-From-Space-Address: @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET
Message-ID: <2ud4_yqCIUC.A.4L.200kLB@chain.digitalkingdom.org>

>  Date:     Fri, 23 Apr 1993 10:08:46 BST
>  From: C.J.Fine@BRADFORD
>
>  I am finding it harder and harder to tolerate the word le'avla.
>  It's supposed to mean 'taking word', regarded as a better metaphor
>  than 'borrowed word', but it fails on two counts. First of all,
>  whatever a le'avla might actually mean, it certainly indicates a
>  'taker word' rather than a 'taken word'.

True.  `Taken word' would be {selyle'avla}, which is too much of a mouthful.

>  Secondly, the definition of 'lebna' is about taking, gaining, seizing,
>  confiscating.

Then how about {cpacu}?  {selcpavla}?

>  The reason for the word 'borrow' in the English metaphor is,
>  it seems to me, that the original user (language) still has use of a
>  borrowed word.

I'm not sure about this.  When you take someone's name for a register,
he still has use of it.  Do you borrow fire for a cigarette?

>  I would therefore contend that in Lojban too, be'avla (or
>  rather selbe'avla - borrowed word) would be better than le'avla
>  (confiscator word).  Still not good, though.

Not good.  `x1 (agent) ... temporarily [!] takes ... for interval x4 [!]'.

>  I thought about fengyvla - foreign word; but there are other
>  meanings we might want for that lujvo.

Yes, first of all a word between `foreign quotation' marks.

>  I have settled on fu'ivla - copy word - as the best I can think of.

No.  The most intuitive meaning of this is `calque' (`loan translation').

Ivan