From LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU Sat Mar 6 22:52:38 2010 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 14 Apr 1993 01:10:44 -0400 Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2534; Wed, 14 Apr 93 01:10:29 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 1090; Wed, 14 Apr 93 01:10:14 EST Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 15:08:26 +1000 Reply-To: Nick Nicholas Sender: Lojban list From: Nick Nicholas Subject: Lujvo paper, part 3.3 X-To: Lojban Mailing List To: Erik Rauch Status: OR X-From-Space-Date: Thu Apr 15 01:08:26 1993 X-From-Space-Address: @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Message-ID: <8YzJii-f6RH.A.-L.200kLB@chain.digitalkingdom.org> 3.3. je-lujvo place structure ordering Most lujvo in our list of proposed place structures have their place structures ordered by je-lujvo ordering. In this scheme, the selected places of the tertanru are followed by the selected places of the seltanru. This ordering makes sense if we consider the seltanru and tertanru in the GDS linked by a {gi'e}. If linked by {je}, nesting problems make the sequence of places obscure. Besides being advantageous for je-lujvo themselves, this ordering is also natural for those lujvo which do not fall into a well-defined seltanru-tertanru relationship. If the relationship isn't like {be}, then the seltanru places can't be placed in any tertanru place slot, and it is safer to dump them at the end. As an example of a je-luvo, consider {tinju'i}, to listen. Its places are: j1=t1, j2=t2, t3. The places of the tertanru appear first, and the remaining places of the seltanru follow: le jundi cu tinju'i le se jundi le te tirna. As an example of a lujvo with an obscure seltanru-tertanru relationship, take {pluku'a}, side chamber. {pluku'a} defines it to be a room in some relationship with a route (corridor). This relationship cannot be expressed by either {be} or {je}; the GDS looks something like: le kumfa cu kumfa le se kumfa te'e le pluta The easiest way to deal with this is simply to dump the seltanru places after the tertanru places: le kumfa cu pluku'a le se kumfa le pluta. Note that there are many cases where the seltanru-tertanru relationship is obscure where a SE before the seltanru would make the relationship clearer. Thus in {ti'ifla}, bill, proposed law, the relationship between {le stidi} and {le flalu} is obscure. But {ti'ifla} can really be considered a "surface structure" of {selti'ifla}, which is obviously a je-lujvo, since {le se stidi} (that suggested) is {le flalu}. Place ordering for {ti'ifla} thus proceeds as for {selti'ifla}. One should be aware of the inherent risk with such lujvo (which we'll name after their most famous exemplar, {le'avla}-lujvo, since the "proper" form of {le'avla} is {selyle'avla}. Their abbreviated forms can easily be interpreted themselves as je-lujvo or be-lujvo, rather than as abbreviations: a {le'avla} formally is more plausibly {le valsi poi lebna} rather than {le valsi poi se lebna}. {le'avla}-lujvo are not inherently wrong: the veljvo {lebna valsi} is as pertinent a description of the concept as {se lebna valsi}, if a bit more opaque. And it would not be feasible to try and eradicate them: they are an opportune abbreviation, and entrenched in many words in the language. However, they are a trap in lujvo place ordering, as they obscure the basic relation between the seltanru and tertanru. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Nick S. Nicholas, "Rode like foam on the river of pity CogSci & CompSci student, Turned its tide to strength University of Melbourne, Australia. Healed the hole that ripped in living" nsn@{munagin.ee|mundil.cs}.mu.oz.au - Suzanne Vega, Book Of Dreams ______________________________________________________________________________