From @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Thu May 6 08:39:01 1993 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Thu, 6 May 1993 18:43:1From @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Fri May 7 10:09:43 1993 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Fri, 7 May 1993 14:14:15 -0400 Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9111; Fri, 07 May 93 14:13:42 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 7008; Fri, 07 May 93 14:14:30 EST Date: Fri, 7 May 1993 14:09:43 EDT Reply-To: bob@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: Lojban list Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was bob@GRACKLE.STOCKBRIDGE.MA.US From: bob@GNU.AI.MIT.EDU Subject: TECH: experimental cmavo "xo'e" X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu, bob@grackle.stockbridge.ma.us To: Erik Rauch In-Reply-To: Mr Andrew Rosta's message of Fri, 7 May 1993 16:45:12 +0100 <9305071626.AA09259@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3ECTbVEyndM.A.52H.7z0kLB@chain.digitalkingdom.org> Andrew Rosta says In the case of, say, _judri_: judri x1 is address of x2 in system x3 putting xo'e in the x3 place means *not* that the address is not part of a system, but that it is unspecified as to whether the address is or isn't part of a system. Good point! So, _xo'e_ really ought to be used frequently: each time one uses a brivla, for each sumti slot one should think "do I really want to claim that this sumti exists?" This is an annoying conclusion, ... All those 'by standard' places could be dumped, for example. This is an _interesting_ conclusion. Suppose a future community of Lojban speakers start to use "xo'e" frequently. This means that the present notion of how gismu should be created is wrong. Better to create predicates with fewer places, and then to use `added' places as needed. This would bring Lojban much closer to natural languages that use prepositions and case endings. I think we should continue to construct gismu as we do now. The concept embedded in a gismu is supposed to be irreducible; all the places are needed. If I use "xo'e", you should consider the possibility that I am speaking in a non-sensical manner. The presumption is that you have to have a maker if something is made/assembled/built. Likewise, the concept of an address is supposed to include the notion that it is in some sort of system. (Of course the system may be trivial or obvious, but in that case, you can elide the place or use "zo'e".) Aristotle was wrong to argue that complex entities necessarily imply a teleology; but he was not stupid. The world is such that I can look out my window and see a complex entity `made' without a maker, but it took centuries of discoveried and thinking before anyone figured this out. Indeed, I don't think that you should use "zbasu" without the `maker' place except occasionally; and you certainly should not speak of a tree being made (except by microbiologists) except in the context of teaching people that trees are instances of complex entities that that appear without a teleology. (In other words, the default presumption that made things have a maker should be kept...and trees do not fall into the category of made things.) "Mark E. Shoulson" says: ...what does "x1 makes x2 period" mean? Maybe this utterance does *not* mean anything! Perhaps everything made must be made/assembled/built _out of_ something....or maybe not. I certainly cannot think of anything made (in contrast to designed) that is not made _out of_ something, whether it be waves of light or atoms or gravitational fields or the emotions of a crowd.... Bear in mind that when we English speakers think of the places of a gismu, we think of things that are easily added or deleted from the concept. Places are not primary to us English speakers. But to a fluent lojbanist, to speak an utterance without at least an implicit place (as with "zo'e") ... as awkward as speaking a sentence without tense. It will take conscious effort. When you use "xo'e" you are claiming that a fundamental understanding is somehow wrong. All this makes for yet another aspect of language to look for in the communication habits of fluent Lojban speakers. Robert J. Chassell bob@gnu.ai.mit.edu Rattlesnake Mountain Road (413) 298-4725 Stockbridge, MA 01262-0693 USA