From LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU Sat Mar 6 22:51:41 2010 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Mon, 31 May 1993 18:39:26 -0400 Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8807; Mon, 31 May 93 18:38:33 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 8167; Mon, 31 May 93 18:39:48 EDT Date: Mon, 31 May 1993 13:06:26 EDT Reply-To: dbt@CELLAR.ORG Sender: Lojban list From: david twery Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system Subject: Tech fix responses X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Erik Rauch Status: RO X-Status: X-From-Space-Date: Mon May 31 09:06:26 1993 X-From-Space-Address: @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Message-ID: Well, let me say This about That: (Note: Lojban /lojbo/ within slashes) 1. Explicit Elision of Places -- /xo'e/ I'm against it -- weakly. I see no need for it, since I never considered the places within /bridi/ to be "compulsory" -- simply implicit. And, in the example of a teleportation /klama/, I *can* imagine a route place, even if that route is quite an abstract concept. Plus, what's the advantage in having a /ve klama/ meaning /xe klama/, or /klama fo/ meaning /klama fu/? I can't imagine any situation that couldn't be handled by an elision /cmavo/ if explicitness is required. I'm open to suggestions and persuasion, and I would not be at all upset if the proposal was accepted, but am confused as to the need for it at all. Not to be perverse, but I would probably not use it unless-or-until I saw it in general use and fully "got" how to use it. 2. Figurative/Poetic Markers /pe'a/ and /po'a/ with /rafsi/; as /selma'o/ UI. I like Bob's proposal. I would have argued for a larger set of figurative markers, except that I take the broad interpretation of "tanruic ambiguity". In fact, I'd like to think that the /gismu/ are rather ambiguous. Example --what frequency in nanometers is /crino/, and how restricted a range does it refer to? Since nearly all European and European-influenced cultures use the word "heart" to refer to sentiment and emotion, especially romantic love, the use of */pevrinsa/ would greatly simplify some (culture-centric) matters. The use of the closing /cmavo/ /po'a/ seems a little less clear to me. For that matter, using *pairs* of grouping words (like /nu...ku/ or /ke...kei/) within a /lujvo/ seems a little far-out, and I haven't seen it done in practical use. This might be a good project to try, making some utterly weird sesquipedalian /lujvo/ including groupers, even multiple orders of 'em. I also like the proposed use of these markers as UI /cmavo/, if only for the reason of being able to use the scalar /cmavo/ (i.e., /cai/, /nai/). The negation (and complementation) questions remain open, but I'm sure there will be some use for a construction like /na'epo'e/ if only to preserve symmetry within the language. This may also lead to a particularly gritty test of Sapir-Whorf: we may end up *creating* a new linguistic thought pattern by simple extension of a /selma'o/. An English-language analogy might be, if the verb "put" was pressed into general service as an auxiliary verb to create a new category of verb (superfective, perhaps?). 3. She Came In Through The Bathroom Window. The discussion of the problem of looking through the window in Lojban is primarily philosophical, IMHO. This is a case where the activity is dependant on the object -- but this is certainly not a novel insight. One can look at something *through* a piece of transparent glass, and one can look at something *by means of* a video camera. With a telescope, either agency may apply, and the proper word is dependant on nuance and context. It's a case of "le mot juste", a stylistic consideration. For instance -- did she come in through, a simple description, /pagre/; or did she come in for some purpose, using the instrumentality (/nu pilno/) of her climbing in through the window? Has Paul McCartney shown any interest in Lojban yet? 4. lojbab: "It has been my intent to baseline the modified rafsi list as of 1 June, which is Tuesday." Excellent! Now I can fully recommence my efforts at writing things that *rhyme* in Lojban. (Be afraid ... be VERY afraid ... :^) ) /co'omi'e la deived tueris/