From @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Fri May 28 11:00:26 1993 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Fri, 28 May 1993 05:01:52 -0400 Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8748; Fri, 28 May 93 05:01:02 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 2634; Fri, 28 May 93 05:02:12 EDT Date: Fri, 28 May 1993 10:00:26 +0100 Reply-To: Colin Fine Sender: Lojban list From: Colin Fine Subject: Re: how to say To: Erik Rauch Status: RO X-Status: Message-ID: Rick Morneau says: ================================== It seems to me that, in the sentence "I look through the window", the agent "I" is really using the window as an instrument. Consider a similar sentence: I looked at the crowd through/with/using a telescope. Obviously, "with" must be used in its instrumental sense, rather than in its other English senses (accompaniment, manner, etc). Thus, I think the proper way to translate the original sentence would be as if you were trying to say: I look using the window. or I look with the window. The French equivalent is instructive: Je regarde par la fenetre. I look by the window ==================================== That would be an obvious way of handling it, and did indeed occur to me (mi catlu sepi'o le canko); but I do not think that is the meaning of the phrase. 'Looking through a window' is NOT the same as 'looking through a telescope'. Consider 'looking through a momentary gap between passers-by'. ===================================== However, I long ago gave up trying to come up with EXACT translations between different languages. If you develop a conlang that can precisely capture all the subtleties of your native language, then all you'll succeed in doing is to create a clone of your native language. The best you can hope for is to make your conlang as flexible as possible so that it can capture as many subtleties as possible. ===================================== Indeed. But what makes the activity of Lojban so interesting to me is the way it encourages me to think hard about what I mean. If it were simply a matter of 'EXACT translations' between different languages, then I would expect 'look through a telescope' and 'look through a window' to be translated identically. However, I don't do that - I look behind the English phrase and try to extract a more fundamental meaning that I can map onto the resources of Lojban. Incidentally, I don't agree that the French example is instructive. French 'par' happens to cover both instrument and route/channel, but so what? ======================================================================== There's a monkey on my shoulder | Colin Fine and it's telling me lies | Dept of Computing Just to stop me ever seeing | University of Bradford what's in front of my eyes. | Bradford, W. Yorks, England It tells me what the world is like| BD7 1DP and how I ought to be, | Tel: 0274 733680 (h), 383915 (w) And just what's gonna happen | c.j.fine@bradford.ac.uk if I ever dare be me. | 'Morris dancers do it with bells on' ========================================================================