From @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Tue Jun 1 22:54:38 1993 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Mon, 31 May 1993 22:55:36 -0400 Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9315; Mon, 31 May 93 22:54:42 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 9036; Mon, 31 May 93 22:55:57 EDT Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1993 12:54:38 +1000 Reply-To: Nick Nicholas Sender: Lojban list From: Nick Nicholas Subject: Re: TECH: pe'a/po'a proposal (long) X-To: lojbab@GREBYN.COM X-Cc: Lojban Mailing List To: Erik Rauch In-Reply-To: from "Logical Language Group" at May 28, 93 04:49:04 am Status: RO X-Status: Message-ID: The Seraphim surely rejoiced when Logical Language Group spoke thus: }John Cowan writes: }>Subject: TECH: Figurative speech: a minor change proposal I've left this a tad late, but I think I'm still in before the cutoff. I agree with John's proposal of a grammar change; having a different grammar for PEhA POhA and UI is redundant. In fact, there's many other situations where UI-scoping may be used to advantage to remove grammemes, but that's not important. I further think that retaining POhA as a terminator to PEhA, while allowing NAI and CAI after them, is an unneccesary complication. Like Lojbab and Nora, I am hesitant about the nature of semantic extension. I don't have the time to analyse the lujvo corpus *sigh*, but it is true that what can be analysed as the heads of tanru do not always appear in final position --- if the tanru can be said to have a head at all. Thus a {balvi speni} is not a {speni} at all, but a {balvi}; and a {blari'o} = {blanu joi crino} is not a {crino}. We don't feel that these have to be marked. I suspect that a lot of these semantic extension cases can be paraphrased into what I'd call a Deeper Tanru Structure, which only involves semantic restriction or explicit joins like {joi}, and that these extensions are properly considered as abbreviations of such Deep Structures. I'm not really substantiating this hunch of mine, so feel free to demolish it. In any case, I think it more advantageous that we consider metaphoricity (urgh) to be a continuum, that we allow {pe'acu'e} to cover these cases between literalness and outright no relation to the tertanru; and since {pe'acu'e} will be doing {po'a}'s proposed job, to drop {po'a} (which at this stage would be greatly appreciated). Incidentally: I think the North/South/East/West FAhA cmavo should be dropped and replaced with appropriate {fi'o} expression, since FAhA is clearly open-ended, languages can come up with an indefinite number of basic categories, and I don't think having North as {be'a} (or whatever) instead of {fi'o berti} actually accomplishes that much. Of course, that's just me :) --- 'Dera me xhama t"e larm"e, T Nick Nicholas, CgS & CS, Melbourne Uni Dera mbas blerimit | nsn@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au (IRC: nicxjo) Me xhama t"e larm"e! | Milaw ki ellhnika/Esperanto parolata/ Lumtunia nuk ka ngjyra tjera.' | mi ka'e tavla bau la lojban. je'uru'e - Martin Camaj, _Nj"e Shp'i e Vetme_ | *d'oh!*