From LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU Sat Mar 6 22:51:54 2010 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 19 May 1993 05:05:01 -0400 Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5032; Wed, 19 May 93 05:04:19 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 5587; Wed, 19 May 93 05:05:29 EDT Date: Wed, 19 May 1993 05:01:05 EDT Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: kliru X-To: hedgehog@SCRIPPS.EDU X-Cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Erik Rauch Status: O X-Status: X-From-Space-Date: Wed May 19 01:01:05 1993 X-From-Space-Address: @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Message-ID: The element words in the gismu list have an complicated history. JCB had words for ALL of the elements in his dictionary in 1974/75, and they were all of gismu structure. When he remade the words in 1979-82, though, he chose to only make some of them as gismu, the ones that occur in typical non-technical speech. The others were shunted off to le'avla space. One reason cited, was that these words, like other non-technical words, are occasionally used in natural language in non-jargony ways, i.e figuratve metaphors. Iron, tin can, aluminum foil, chrome plate, nickel - all of these are in this category. A similar argument was used for deciding what animals rated gismu, when gismu space clearly cannot support a fractuion of all the animals that exist, or even that are used commonly in speech. Indeed the metaphor idea breaks down, since we use "coon", "zebra", "turtle", etc. metaphorically in English. So probably word/concept frequency coupled with JCB's own aesthetics determined which elements got gismu in old Loglan. For Lojban, we wanted to have a more objective method of deciding, so we looked for the metaphorical approach, but then allowed the list of plausible candidates to be weeded both by lack of common usage (i.e. the word wasn't common enough to make it into the dictioanries of the other 5 source languages) and conflicts woth other wordas and for rafsi. But the bottom line was that we wanted to have at least the same gismu that JCB had, unless we had an ex reason NOT to do so. So all of his limited set stayed around unless we had such a reason, and we added a couple more based on obvious common metaphorical usage. With the rise of communoty feedback on the wordlist, most especially here on the net, the elements and animal words and cultural gismu have been most strongly attacked as being a waste of gismu space. Word frequency might be a somewhat valid argument, but we have littrle data to supprts such. So we wnet rather strongly on the metaphorical angle - after all, making tanrui and lujvo is a major advantage for words on the gismu list. That standard of metaphorical use was elevated in importance even as it became less meaninfgful. After all, we frown on figurative metaphors in Lojban these days, and few of the element words, or the animals have non-figuartive metaohors (oh I forgot domesticity as a factor for animals - animals commonly found arou the house or farm were prone to being included, and by extension, so were elements that were coomon enough to be talked about by everyday people. The movement has been to have gismu broadened in meaning whereever possible. Thus the gismu for chlorine was broadened to included all halogens (especially worthwhile since we talk about iodine, bromides, floride toothpaste, and hallights as often as we talk about hydrochlotric acid and chlorine in your swimming pool. Likewise, "neon" was broadened to include all inert gases, especially since some "neon" lights use other inert gases. WE broadened the meanings and effectively abandoned any claim that these words had any particular meaning in terms of the recognized scientific nature of the elements and the aniumals. Thus a whale could very well be a type of Lojban finpe (fish) even though thisis not scientifically valid. (though for such cases we will TRY to be accurate where we know better in making wors). Most of the lements remained just one element, though most of the animals came to be recognized as categories offering some kind of spread of species and subspecies. Thus the element words haven't had a place for species/typoe. You have now pointed out that at least for kliru, this is invalid, and presumable navni as well. So we need to add a place to these and other comparable element words thae have a 'species spread', a form that allows the 'species' to be identified. If someone wants to look at the elemen words and see if others need such treatment, i welcome such comments. lojbab