From @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Fri May 7 08:00:35 1993 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Fri, 7 May 1993 12:06:51 -0400 Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8254; Fri, 07 May 93 12:06:12 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 5841; Fri, 07 May 93 12:03:19 EST Date: Fri, 7 May 1993 12:00:35 -0400 Reply-To: "Mark E. Shoulson" Sender: Lojban list From: "Mark E. Shoulson" Subject: TECH: experimental cmavo "xo'e" X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Erik Rauch In-Reply-To: hedgehog%SCRIPPS.EDU@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU's message of Thu, 6 May 1993 15:39:01 -0700 Status: O X-Status: Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 6 May 1993 15:39:01 -0700 >From: hedgehog%SCRIPPS.EDU@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU >X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu >>>Well, actually, my copy of the gimste has >> >>>zbasu zba make >>>x1 makes/assembles/builds/manufactures/creates x2 out of materials x3 >> >>>in which case this particular one's denying the existence of any >>>material out of which it is made, which is a bit easier to comprehend. >> >>Well, isn't that just {zbasu fi noda}? There *is* a difference between >>{xo'e} and {noda}, but defining it is not easy. >> >> >>~mark >Isn't the difference between "zbasu fi noda" and "zbasu fi xo'e" that the >first recognizes that x1 makes x2 from nothing (but it *could* have been >made from something) and the second says that x1 makes x2 *period*? "zabsu >fi zo'e" says that x1 makes x2 from something-or-other. But what does "x1 makes x2 period" mean? Does it mean you're not saying anything about the existence or non-existence of the materials? That's {fi zo'e}, since {zo'e} can be {noda}. Does it mean there are no such materials? That's {fi noda}. {xo'e} does seem to have a meaning in some cases, distinct from {noda} or {zo'e}, but apparently not in this case. I am not sure how this can be defined in general. ~mark