From LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU Sat Mar 6 22:52:06 2010 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Fri, 7 May 1993 15:32:57 -0400 Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9644; Fri, 07 May 93 15:32:26 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 7454; Fri, 07 May 93 15:33:24 EST Date: Fri, 7 May 1993 12:29:28 -0700 Reply-To: hedgehog@SCRIPPS.EDU Sender: Lojban list From: hedgehog@SCRIPPS.EDU Subject: Re: TECH: experimental cmavo "xo'e" X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Erik Rauch X-From-Space-Date: Fri May 7 05:29:28 1993 X-From-Space-Address: @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Message-ID: >>Isn't the difference between "zbasu fi noda" and "zbasu fi xo'e" that the >>first recognizes that x1 makes x2 from nothing (but it *could* have been >>made from something) and the second says that x1 makes x2 *period*? "zabsu >>fi zo'e" says that x1 makes x2 from something-or-other. > >But what does "x1 makes x2 period" mean? Does it mean you're not saying >anything about the existence or non-existence of the materials? That's {fi >zo'e}, since {zo'e} can be {noda}. Does it mean there are no such >materials? That's {fi noda}. {xo'e} does seem to have a meaning in some >cases, distinct from {noda} or {zo'e}, but apparently not in this case. I >am not sure how this can be defined in general. > >~mark "x1 makes x2 period" means that the question of the materials is inappropriate. How about "A mind makes (or produces) a thought". The thought isn't made of nothing. The thought isn't made of an unspecified material. The question of material just isn't appropriate. Earlier in the discussion someone had said: >This pops up for me when I want to say something universal, but > where the natural gismu seems to want an agent: "Living things are > made from cells [by whom?]", ... English gets away with a > passive here, because the passive in English does not commit you > to the existence of an agent... I think the difficulty here is because this person felt that "[by whom?]" implied _le cevni_ rather than _lenu farvi_. I don't agree with that opinion and so I don't feel that it is necessary to use _xo'e_ with _zbacu_ in that context. I also want to make it clear that I am not an advocate of _xo'e_. I feel that it would introduce the sort of grammatical ambiguity than Lojban is intended to reduce. If there is a need to say "x1 makes x2", I would rather see a new gismu introduced than _xo'e_. ***************** Richard Schroeder hedgehog@riscsm.scripps.edu The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of TSRI or its funding agencies.