From @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Sun Jun 6 18:08:42 1993 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Sun, 6 Jun 1993 22:10:43 -0400 Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4082; Sun, 06 Jun 93 22:09:45 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 4592; Sun, 06 Jun 93 22:11:08 EDT Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1993 22:08:42 EDT Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: FAQ: LOGDATA.RAW format - what are rafsi, keyword, clue word X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Erik Rauch Status: RO X-Status: Message-ID: This is a repost of a good [frequently asked] question from Ian Gordon. My recent posting of the new rafsi baseline contains much of this info, but maybe not as clearly for beginning Lojbanists. *** Ian G. Please note addendum at the end of my response. >From: gordon@baslg1.enet.dec.com (Ian Gordon, Computer Systems Administrator, DTN 7 826 2251 25-May-1993 0852) > >This one is mainly a query which (ISTM) is a little elementary for the list >(compared with the level of discussion I have seen so far). > >On the gismu list (I have grabbed logdata.raw) I am a little puzzled by the >layout - it seems to be of the form > >gismu rafsi1 rafsi2 rafsi3 meaning 'loose meaning' exact meaning > >Where _any_ (one or more) of the rafsi may be omitted, even to the extent of >only having number 2 or number 3 present. > >I have (just about) figured that a rafsi is a shortened form of the gismu for >use in building more complex words. My question is - when do you use each of >the possibilities? Is one of them only used at the start, one only in the >middle and one only at the end, or what? AdvTHANKSance Ian & r To: gordon@baslg1.enet.dec.com Subject: Re: self-segregating morphemes Actually, this is the type of question I, and a lot of other people, would like to see more of on the list. Most of the people on the list are at your level of skill and question, but they tend to be lurkers. The people who write 'higher' stuff are perfectly happy to talk on these subjects, but don't have the questions. The PLS file newrafsi.unf will contain the more detailed answer to your question. Briefly, a given gismu has up to 5 combining forms. I will use zmadu as an example, since it has all of them -zmadu is the long form found at the end of a word zmady is the long form used anywhere else Thus blanyzmadu is the lujvo equivalent for blanu zmadu (blue-more) = (bluer) When any of the other three forms exist, they may be used in substitute for the longer forms, subject only to the morphology restrictions on compounds. These are - a lujvo must end with a vowel (hence you cannot substitute a CVC-short form in final position, but you may substitute either of the others: blanymau blanyzma and certain phonology and morphology rules dictate modifications when certain combinations of letters come together. If they are the wrong ones, then you have to stick a 'y' in between, pronounced as an unstressed schwa - the final vowel of 'sofa'. You may also have to insert either a 'y' or an r/n in two rarer instances where missing those letters would cause the compouynd to fall apart and be heard as two or more words. All of the forms, short, or long, are considered to be the identical word, with identical place strucxture and semantics - you use a long word when talking to someone who doesn't know the rafsi short--forms, since you can easily reconstruct what it was built from then. You might also use it in 'noisy environements' like talking on a radio to an airplane or ham radio, talking at a noisy party, etc. Otherwise, you probably use a word that sounds good to you, mostlikley the shortest possible one. But it is still the same word. Feel free to post this question on the List, and let someone else answer it (or I'll repost this answer). I know there are others who would ask the question or want to know the answer. ***** Addendum on reposting: BTW the fields that you call "meaning" and "loose meaning" have a considerably different intent than your titles suggest. The first we call 'keyword', the second 'clue word'. The keyword field is a short word or phrase which is intended to serve as a unique one word (or very short phrase) English reminder of the meaning - it must be unique because the field is used in flash card drilling 9such as with the LogFlash program), wherein you must give the Lojban word for the English. As it must be unique, it therefore sometimes is not really a "meaning"; e.g. sfani 'fly' (the insect) and vofli 'flight' (but really 'fly' the verb - "flight" would probably be "nu vofli") The 'clue word' has an similar purpose for people studying the words. Most (but not all) of the Lojban words have some English portion in their etymology, according to the classic Loglan algorithm for grinding together the sounds of the 6 (8 in old Loglan) source languages. Usually the keyword is the same word that was used in the Lojban word-making etymology (or is very similar as per fly/flight). If the etymology word is NOT similar to the keyword, it is given in the 'clue word' field. Thus, Lojbanists like Frank S. who may be having trouble learning the gismu, and who haven't found memory hooks, may get some from the clue word, if it exists, and/or the keyword. To do this, Lojbanize the American pronunciation of the English word, and look for matches with the Lojban - they will usually be evident and similar (though people have noted that we probably shouldn't have matched later/'LeItr' with 'baLvI' and may give you either a good solid hook on the word as a whole, or at least on some letters of the word. (We didn't want to try to do British pronunciation, which we who built the Lojban vocabulary don't know as well and in any case seems to reduce more vowels and consonants to non-contrasting values than American pronunciations.) lojbab