From @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Wed Jun 9 05:39:10 1993 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 9 Jun 1993 16:35:38 -0400 Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9094; Wed, 09 Jun 93 16:34:35 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 4980; Wed, 09 Jun 93 16:35:51 EDT Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1993 12:39:10 PDT Reply-To: fschulz@pyramid.com Sender: Lojban list From: fschulz@PYRAMID.COM Subject: Re: begginer exercize X-To: lojban list To: Erik Rauch X-Status: Status: OR Message-ID: la lojbab cusku di'e <<<<< These are of course NOT beginner level exercises, as the last bit with "through" the window should have shown. Any English sentence which uses a preposition, such that the preposition does not correspond to the 'obvious' gismu's place structure, means that you are going to have to do some fancy stuff in translation. 'Fancy' of course is in the eye of the beholder. There are simple expressions using BAI that probably meet the obvious interpretation of Frank's sentences, but you risk running afoul of Rick Morneau's metaphor malglico-ism whenever you use BAI. This is why 'translation' is inherently NOT a beginner activity. Veijo in a lot of essays last year urged people to use Lojban AS IT IS, rather than trying to translate, which is both limiting and discouraging when you find that the phrase that seems so simple in English is not simple in Lojban. >>>> I never stated that I successfully produced a beginner exercise. I was hoping that a failed attempt might inspire someone else to do a better job. I strongly agreed that using lojban in native mode is the best procedure. Unfortunately, I am not yet capable of native lojban usage. If easy lojban text existed, then I could model on text that I read. I regard the "thru the window" example as a massive success. I had a mabla-glico blind spot in my usage. I got lots of information on alternate interpretations in different languages. My understanding has increased much more than if I had come up with good usage to start with. -- Frank Schulz ( fschulz@pyramid.com )