From LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU Sat Mar 6 22:44:40 2010 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Tue, 1 Jun 1993 12:23:42 -0400 Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1681; Tue, 01 Jun 93 12:22:31 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 2541; Tue, 01 Jun 93 11:47:14 EDT Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1993 09:44:25 MDT Reply-To: Rick Morneau Sender: Lojban list From: Rick Morneau Subject: Metaphor in conlangs X-To: Lojban list X-Cc: conlang@diku.dk To: Erik Rauch Status: RO X-Status: X-From-Space-Date: Tue Jun 1 03:44:25 1993 X-From-Space-Address: @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Message-ID: Howdy conlangers and Lojbanists! Although this thread originated on Lojban List, I am sending a copy to conlang list, since I think people there may find it interesting. The basic problem under discussion is how to translate the expression "look through a window" and to somehow get across the concept of "through-ness"; i.e., the idea that the window is being used as a pathway or channel. I suggested that an instrumental sense using a word like "with" is the best way to translate it; i.e., "to look WITH a window". My reason is that this approach will always be understood, even if it sounds odd when translated into some natural languages. Robert J. Chassell writes: > > When I look through the window at the field, I am usually > observing. (Here I am using "through" in the sense that my line of > sight goes through the window, not that I am look "by means of the > window".) > There is a serious potential problem here, stemming from the fact that you are using the idea of "through" in a non-literal (i.e., metaphoric) sense. In other words, you are trying to translate an English metaphoric usage into Lojban. Your translation will make sense to English speakers, but will not make sense to all non-English speakers. It's instructive to consider how other languages represent the same concept. Since Colin Fine disliked my French example, perhaps examples from a different language will be more convincing. Consider Russian: Russian: Ya smotryu v okno. gloss: I look in window. English: I look through the window. The more typical Russian word for "through" would be "cherez", and it would be used in contexts involving physical movement along a path or tunnel. It is NOT used in the above case. What's even more interesting is that it is also not used in the case of throwing something (such as a rock) through a window. In this case, the same preposition "v" (meaning "into", since motion is implied) would be used. Obviously, Russians do not think of a window as something that one looks or moves THROUGH. Instead, one looks IN or moves INTO it. Perhaps the thickness of the window is the defining criterion in the way Russians think of a window. Now, there are other languages that share the English metaphor: Indonesian (melihat lewat = to see through or via) and Hungarian (atnez = to thru-see) are similar to English. I suspect that speakers of these languages will have no problem understanding the English metaphor. However, there are other languages, like Russian, that see things differently. The only one I know of offhand is Swahili, where the word used to say "look through" would be "angalia", which implies "looking out of or from". Professional translators are intensely aware that translation of metaphor is not only risky, but generally impossible. The more abstract the metaphor, the greater the difficulty. And when a translation fails, it either generates gibberish, or it means something completely unintended. As a result, I suspect that your attempt to translate "look through a window" will succeed only if the listener/reader speaks a language that shares the English metaphor, or unless you are so specific and detailed in your translation that he effectively LEARNS the metaphor. If you feel you can succeed, though, here are a few others you can try: Try to capture the "on-ness" in: He played a song ON the piano. Try to capture the "under-ness" in: He worked UNDER Johnson for 3 years. My own feeling about metaphor is that it's use should be strongly discouraged by conlang inventors by ensuring that the vocabulary is sufficiently rich to make metaphor unnecessary. (I wouldn't want to be a poet writing in a conlang. :-) The only way metaphor will work properly is if the metaphoric system of the conlang is PRECISELY defined. In effect, you must provide a "syntax and semantics" for the metaphor of your language. Since a comprehensive analysis of the metaphoric system of a NATURAL language has never been done (to my knowledge), I doubt if providing such a system for a conlang is technically feasible. Avoid the use of metaphor in your conlang. Most attempts to communicate using metaphor WILL fail. But since we tend to use metaphor naturally and without thinking, this is easier said than done. :-( Regards, Rick -- *=*= Disclaimer: The INEL does not speak for me and vice versa =*=* = Rick Morneau Idaho National Engineering Laboratory = * mnu@inel.gov Idaho Falls, Idaho 83415, USA * =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= NeXT Mail accepted here! *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=