From @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Tue Jun 8 22:17:42 1993 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 9 Jun 1993 08:30:21 -0400 Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5213; Wed, 09 Jun 93 02:19:38 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 0190; Wed, 09 Jun 93 02:21:02 EDT Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1993 02:17:42 EDT Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: beginner exercise X-To: fschulz@pyramid.com X-Cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Erik Rauch X-Status: Status: OR Message-ID: <8FWLxSigrJ.A.YRE.Zt0kLB@chain.digitalkingdom.org> These are of course NOT beginner level exercises, as the last bit with "through" the window should have shown. Any English sentence which uses a preposition, such that the preposition does not correspond to the 'obvious' gismu's place structure, means that you are going to have to do some fancy stuff in translation. 'Fancy' of course is in the eye of the beholder. There are simple expressions using BAI that probably meet the obvious interpretation of Frank's sentences, but you risk running afoul of Rick Morneau's metaphor malglico-ism whenever you use BAI. This is why 'translation' is inherently NOT a beginner activity. Veijo in a lot of essays last year urged people to use Lojban AS IT IS, rather than trying to translate, which is both limiting and discouraging when you find that the phrase that seems so simple in English is not simple in Lojban. (I will note that some of the toughest translations that we've tried have been stories for young children that use 'simple' English that turns out not to be so simple. I also find that my Russian native kids also find most children's stories no more enlightening than any other English not specifically tailored for their vocabulary and grammar command). lojbab