Message-Id: From: cowan@snark.thyrsus.com (John Cowan) Subject: Re: Place structure paper, version 1.2 To: nsn@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au (Nick Nicholas) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 12:30:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 Nick Nicholas writes: > I'd suggest [the first] paragraph be extended to two or three. I've made it a bit longer and prepended a few sentences about bridi, sumti, and selbri. > I'd suggest > it would be sounder to include somewhere the disclaimer that place structures > are subject to revision by the community. That may in fact deserve a para > of its own. Done. > #2.1) mi cu klama la bastn. la .atlantas. le dargu le karce > # I go to-Boston from-Atlanta via-the road using-the car. > > It'd be useful to make this sentence as informative as possible, to foster > the awareness in the reader that places, which do often get elided, aren't > included for fun, but have a real communicative function. A good point, considered in isolation, but I want to keep the individual sumti simple for easy comprehension. The sentence only has to make minimal sense. > #2.4) klama la bastn. la .atlantas. le dargu le karce > # A-goer to-Boston from-Atlanta via-the road using-the car. > > I take it translating this as "Goes to-Boston" etc. would be out for seeming > to rule out non-3rd person singular? No, I'll include both. > An illustrative approximate translation into English would help here: "Look! > Goes to Boston!" Of course, the translation you've already provided may be > taken as sufficient. Done. > #There is a way to both provide a sumti for the x1 place and place the > #selbri first in the bridi: see Example 3.7. > > I think this should go into brackets, as should a few other parenthetical > comments; they detract otherwise. Done. > It is always worth mentioning that these places don't cease existing merely > because they are elided. Done. > I'd use a term other than 'successors': "when the places around them are > not omitted". Done. > #In Example 3.1, the tags are overkill; they serve only to make Example 2.1 > #even longer than it is. Here is a better illustration of the use of FA tags > #for clarification: > > I didn't find this a convincing argument for the reminding use of FA, but > then I'm being difficult %^) . I'd drop the {fa} and {fe}, and make the > jufra bridi more involved, so that the reader really would welcome a reminder > of which is the current place. I haven't yet introduced the notion of tagging some places but not others. > #What if some sumti have FA tags and others do not? The rule is that after > #a tagged sumti, any following untagged sumti occupy the succeeding places, > > I'd disambiguate: "any places following it occupy the places succeeding it". Done. > #3.10) fi'a do dunda fe le vi rozgu > # [what place]? you give x2= the nearby rose > # Are you the giver or the receiver of this rose? > > Interesting question: what would "fi'a do dunda le rozgu" mean? Your using > "fe" implies to me that it'd depend on the answer: the rose would be either > x2 or x4. And yet thinking that it would still be x2 would come naturally > to me. I think you need to flesh this out more, that the sentence really > takes on meaning only when the blank of "fi'a" is filled in. No, "le vi rozgu" is necessarily x2 if untagged, because there have been no actual numeric tags ("fi'a" doesn't count), and it is the first place after the selbri. I'll rewrite so as to clarify these points. > #In particular, after the application of any SE > #cmavo, the number and purposes of the places remain the same, but two of > #them have been exchanged, the x1 place and another. Which place has been > #exchanged with x1 depends on the cmavo chosen. > > "Thus, for example, when "se" is used, the x1 place is swapped with the x2 > place." Done. > #4.1) la bastn. cu se klama mi > # Boston is-the-destination of-me. > # Boston is my destination. > > I think it would be nice to remind the reader of the passiviser connection: > add in brackets "(Boston is gone to by me)". Done. > #Structurally, > #however, they are quite different. Example 4.1 has "la bastn." in the > #x1 place and "mi" in the x2 place of the selbri "se klama", and uses > #standard bridi order; Example 4.2 has "mi" in the x1 place and "la bastn." > #in the x2 place of the selbri "klama", and uses a non-standard order. > > A sentence or two, here, of how the emphasis is changed as a result. How is the emphasis changed? It's not really clear to me. > "A 'road' on Mars on which noone has travelled or is ever likely to, may > be called "le pluta", but it cannot be "le ve klama", since here exists > no "da" such that it is "le ve klama be fo da" (the route taken in an > actual journey by someone [da])." A fine example. Ah, the wonders of cut & paste.... > #In order to convert a tanru, it is necessary > #to enclose the tanru in "ke...ke'e" brackets: > > I'd say "an entire tanru". Me too. Done. > Wrong derivation: give the place structure of "blanu zdani", then se-convert > the whole thing. Mentioning the se-conversion of "zdani" alone will give > rise to erroneous impressions. Fixed. > #Consequently, Example 4.7 means: > > 4.8. Fixed. > "two places mentioned" sounds like it anaphorises back, which I don't think > it does; just say "two given places". Fixed. > Do mention "He told me this --- ko'a > setese cusku mi di'u" as a possible use for "setese", even if with > reservations --- a few of us have already been tempted to use it, and I'm > sure it will turn up in a text eventually. Feh. I've already said more than enough by mentioning this abortion at all. > #The cmavo "fi'o" (of selma'o FIhO) followed by > #a selbri, in this case the gismu "kanla", is prefixed to the sumti which > #fills the new place, "le zunle". > > A bit hard to follow: how about "the combination of "fi'o" and a selbri, in > this case "kanla", form a tag which is prefixed to the sumti filling the > new place, "le zunle". " Done. > "Thus "le zunle" is an eye." Done. > #It is important to remember that even though "le zunle" is > #placed following "fi'o kanla", semantically it belongs in the x1 place. > > the x1 place of "kanla". (Not of viska). Fixed. > Mention what "fi'o pilno" would mean. Done. > #6.6) [to be supplied] > > mi citka xeka'a le karce (or whatever "airplane" is.) Done. > #There are four causal gismu in Lojban, or maybe six, distinguishing > #different versions of the relationships lumped in English as "causal": > > (Not fair to leave your reader dangling: mention parenthetically the other > two). The reference to "six" was a hangover from a more elaborate version that talked about "se jalge" and "te zukte" as well. Deleted. > To stress this, some more examples would be useful, showing how using a > different modal in the same sentence gives different shades of meanings. > Unfortunately any such example would probably sound strained. If you have any on tap, I'll put them in! > #Suppose we wish to claim both events as well as their causal relationship? > > Make explicit what "claiming" means: in "If you water it, it grows", state > explicitly that you haven't said you *have* watered it, or that the plant > *has* grown. And similarly for the other cases. Done. > And mention the example with "rinka" as the selbri as an effective paraphrase, > with the difference that now you *have* watered it, and it *has* grown. Done. > "This is because a sentence can be a cause, or an effect, but not a language." Done. > # With-physical-effect I grasp the-mass-of water , I grasp the cup. > > The paraphrase "(Causing the mass of water to be grasped by me, I grasped > the cup)" would be helpful. Done. > #8.9) li ny. du li vo > # Motivated-by the-number n = the-number 2 + 2. > Entailed-by! Fixed. > #8.10) li ny. du li ni'igi vei re su'i re [ve'o] gi vo > # the-number n = the-number because ( 2 + 2 ) therefore 4. > > Again, paraphrase (otherwise the reader may have no earthly idea why you'd > want to say this): "n is 2+2, and is thus 4". Done. > ############################################################################## > # Der Mensch liegt in groesster Noth, You are reading another .sig from > # Der Mensch liegt in groesster Pein; the NICK NICHOLAS .sig Factory. Mail > # Je lieber moecht ich im Himmel sein. [nsn@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au] for your > # -- Des Knaben Wunderhorn, _Urlicht_ .sig suggestions. [Padding Space] A .sig you might like: # You tollerday donsk? N. You spiggoty anglese? Nn. # You tolkatiff scowegian? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. # Clear all so! Tis a Jute. -- Finnegans Wake -- John Cowan cowan@snark.thyrsus.com ...!uunet!lock60!snark!cowan e'osai ko sarji la lojban.