From @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Mon Aug 16 07:29:36 1993 Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by NEBULA.SYSTEMSZ.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Sun, 15 Aug 1993 07:31:37 -0400 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Sun, 15 Aug 1993 07:30:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199308151130.AA01166@eli.CS.YALE.EDU> Received: from YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6273; Sun, 15 Aug 93 07:29:08 EDT Received: from YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@YALEVM) by YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 9554; Sun, 15 Aug 1993 07:29:08 -0400 Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1993 21:29:36 +1000 Reply-To: Nick Nicholas Sender: Lojban list From: Nick Nicholas Subject: Re: Some how do you say it's X-To: Logical Language Group X-Cc: Lojban Mailing List To: Erik Rauch In-Reply-To: <9308150630.AA10814@grebyn.com> from "Logical Language Group" at Aug 15, 93 02:30:09 am Status: O X-Status: To Logical Language Group respond I thus: #Not to say that I favor or disafavor it as a solution, why does kabryselmre #require a measuring agent place. If it isn't interesting leave it out - it #is a lujvo, after all. I learn more about lujvo --- and my attitude towards them --- every day. I have indeed favoured the throw-the-place out attitude, but I'm rather more hesitant to apply it to tertanru in the veljvo. The reasoning is that a kabyselmre is a selmre is a se merli, and a se merli must have a merli. The attitude I've taken is that, if you have to delete a tertanru place, and it's not because it overlaps with a seltanru place (Lean Lujvo), then I'm using the wrong tertanru. Thus in brulu'i, I have le lumci cu brulu'i le se lumci --- I leave out the te lumci, because we know it to be a broom, and if we need to name it explicitly, we can just say le lumci cu lumci le se lumci le burcu. Come to think of it though, this distinction between omitting tertanru places when they're overlapped by the seltanru, and leaving them in when they aren't, is a bit artificial, isn't it. Hm. I think Lojbab may be right after all. Any ideas? This comes up all the time, btw: the regularity in place structures gives you a slightly different concept to what you originally intended, but usually I wear it. Thus for an agentive 'change', I want x1 changes x2 into x3; but my algorithmic gafygau gives me x1 does x2, which changes x3 into x4. I'm prepared to wear that. Of course, the places need reordering, but that can be done with 'jai': jai galfi has the place structure: agent x1 changes x2 into x3 by doing x-fai. Hm. Thanks for pulling me up on this one, Lojbab. I've got some more thinking to do... ******************************************************************************* A freshman once observed to me: Nick Nicholas am I, of Melbourne, Oz. On the edge of the Rubicon, nsn@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au (IRC: nicxjo) men don't go fishing. CogSci and CompSci & wannabe Linguist. - Alice Goodman, _Nixon In China_ Mail me! Mail me! Mail me! Or don't!!