Message-Id: <199308310539.AA13594@eli.CS.YALE.EDU>
Date:         Tue, 31 Aug 1993 01:37:45 EDT
Reply-To: Logical Language Group <lojbab@GREBYN.COM>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU>
From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@GREBYN.COM>
Subject:      anyone wanna make some lujvo???
To: Erik Rauch <rauch>
Status: RO

Everyone seemed to 'love' the discussions of lujvo that Veijo and I
triggered independently a few weeks ago.  After making sure that Nick
could handle an influx of new lujvo proposals into his files, I am going
to start intermittently posting chunks of the Eaton lists that JCB long
ago set as the benchmark of conceptual coverage within Lojban.  JCB's
'team' actually completed his Eaton 'interface', mostly through the
efforts of Faith Rich, who died shortly after she finished in her late
'80s.  However her lujvo proposals have been noted for being especially
malglico and contrary to any sense of place structures.  We have a lot
of JCB's group efforts, and few - including Nick and myself - have been
impressed.

Since previous work has emphasized the more frequent concepts found at
the beginning of the list, I'm going to start at the other end - the
words listed as being in the "seventh thousand concepts".  These have
had particular interest to me because many of them are extremely rarely
referred to in English, and indeed would not be in the list given their
English frequency; they are included because at least one of the other 3
languages used the word far more frequently than it is used in English.
The other three languages, by the way, are French, German, and Spanish.
I will be including some of the words from these other languages,
especially if a) they seem to be from a different root and hence might
convey the meaning differently or b) if the language is the one whose
frequency of usage for the concept warranted its inclusion (marked with
an asterisk), or c) Spanish to encourage Jorge %^).

Now some of these are going to be so obscure as to warrant borrowings,
and remember that the list dates from the 1920's when and concepts used
were soemwhat different then, but see what you can do, even with the
obscure ones (I recommend a dictionary whenever doing this kind of work
- it might be useful to list what kind of place structure you think the
word should have irrespective of what any Lojban lujvo-making
conventions might generate, especially since this will ease Nick's work
in trying to add the words into his lists.  A person who has thought
about the place structure has almost certainly thought about what the
word means.  As usual, do one word or many - all contributions will be
interesting.  And maybe I'll choose some less obscure words next time.

Eaton p 214
cross-examination       (F*)interrogatoire      (S)interrogatorio
immobility              (F*)immobilite'         (S)immovilidad
interlocutor            (S*)interlocutor
seduction               (F*)se'duction          (G)Verfu:hrung
spoonful                (F)cuillere'e           (S*)cucharada
wet-nurse               (F)nourrice             (S*)nodriza     (G) Amme

bondsman                (F)caution              (S*)fiador
catholicism             (F*)
communicative           (G)mitteilsam           (S*)
echelon (vb. military)  (F*)e'chelonner         (G)staffeln     (S)escalonar
flower-bed              (F*)parterre            (G)Beet
                        (S)cuadro de flores
greengrocer             (F*)fruitier            (G) Gemu:seha:ndler, Kohlho:ker
                        (S)frutero
late-comer, belated     (F*)retardataire        (G)Nachzu:gler  (S)retrasado
riding-school           (F*)mane`ge             (S)picadero
shirt-front             (F*)plastron            (S)pechera
(use) thou-form         (F*)tutoyer             (S)tutear
tricolor                (F*)tricolore
vituperation            (G)Schma:hung           (S*)vituperio
watercolor              (F*)aquarelle
zouave                  (F*)zouave              (S)zuavo

p213
accepter, drawee        (F)tire'                (G*)Akzeptant
                        (S)girado, librado
arbitrariness           (G*)Willku:r            (S)arbitrariedad
Calvary                 (S*)calvario
(I think the metaphorical meaning is intended for this)
nationalization         (G*)Verstaatlichung

muleteer                (S*)arriero

journalistic            (F*)de journaliste      (S*)periodistico

mother-of-pearl         (F)nacre                (S*)na'car

unpublished             (F*)ine'dit             (S)ine'dito

p212
banister, railing       (F*)rampe               (G)Gela:nder    (S)baranda
son-in-law              (F*)gendre              (S*)yerno
(the others in this set aren't far to come %^)
tactical                (F*)tactique            (S)tactico

county-head             (F*)pre'fet             (S)prefecto
insurer                 (G*)Versicherer         (S)asegurador
mobilization            (G*)Mobilmachung

naturalness             (F*top 1000)naturel     (S*)naturalidad

conciseness             (G*)Genauigkeit         (S*)concisio'n
gesticulate (vb.)       (F*)gesticuler
immoral                 (S*)inmoral
unbutton                (S*)desabrochar
work-yard               (F*)chantier            (S)patio de trabajo
                        (G)Bauplatz


BTW, if in forming a lujvo for one of these words, you think of a lujvo
for a related concept, by all means list it, especially if it helps make
a distinction in meaning. e.g if your word for tactical suggests a
contrast with another word for 'strategic' (which is back on page 200
BTW), feel free to list the other.  Likewise, if your dictionary lists
multiple definitions for the word, you may want multiple Lojban lujvo to
represent the concepts.

What, are these harder than 'integer'? %^)

lojbab