Message-Id: <199308242332.AA01389@eli.CS.YALE.EDU>
Date:         Tue, 24 Aug 1993 16:31:20 -0700
Reply-To: jimc@MATH.UCLA.EDU
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU>
From: jimc@MATH.UCLA.EDU
Subject:      Re: a usage problem, and a solution
To: Erik Rauch <rauch>
Status: O

Responding to Lojbab's observation that he often needs to raise a
sumti in afterthought, Nick writes:

> This is precisely where the {jai} unclefter comes in: la lojbab. cu .y.
> jai galfi le gi'uste fai lenu pilno lei valsi srana se cusku be la jycybyl.

I translate to English: Lojbab (umm...) modifies the gismu list by
using pertinent words said by JCB (or JCB sayings pertaining to words).

Because "Lojbab" was the first sumti and because the speaker wouldn't
abandon it when encountering difficulty at the "ummm", I conclude that
this sumti is important to him.  But Lojbanically, events modify
objects.  The problem here is malglico: {galfi} is the wrong selbri.  A
selbri based on {zbasu} is better because it accepts the important
actor sumti.  For example: {galfi zbasu} = {gafrzba} = "(actor) x1
rebuilds (result) x2 out of (former incarnation) x3".  Thus I propose:

    la lojbab. cu gafrzba le gi'uste
        sepi'o le ve gaznu be fo la jycybyl. bei fe lei valsi
    Lojbab rebuilds the gismu list
        using the word organizing principle used by JCB.

Whereas Nick proposes to use {jai} to flip the event into the {fai}
place, digging a common sense derived sumti out of that phrase (stated
subsequently) to occupy x1 of the bridi.  I think that procedure is
somewhat complicated, ambiguous, and subject to errors of
interpretation, a typical result of malglico.  There are areas of
expression in which we have mandated that English-like forms should not
be used, and {galfi} was one of the most contentious of these.  Having
decided a certain way, we ought to say it Lojbanically, not to jerk
Lojban around to reproduce the English way of expression.

Another alternative, closer to the original but still requiring
forethought, is:
        .i bo gau la lojbab. cu galfi [fi] le gi'uste sepi'o ...

I strongly suspect that I have not correctly interpreted the tanru {valsi
srana se cusku}; I hope that "word organizing principle" is close to what
Nick intended.  "Organizing" is supplied by me because that selbri gives
an output place which relevantly could be used to modify the gismu list.

                -- jimc

Glossary:
galfi   (event) x1 modifies (original) x2 into (result) x3
zbasu   (actor) x1 makes/builds/etc. (result) x2 from (materials) x3
gaznu   (actor) x1 organizes (chaos) x2 into (system) x3 by (principle) x4
sepi'o  <BAI> for a tool or means (from pilno)
gi'uste   gismu liste   list of primitive predicate words
gau     <BAI> for an active agent (from gasnu)