From @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Wed Sep 29 08:58:48 1993 Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by NEBULA.SYSTEMSZ.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 29 Sep 1993 13:14:48 -0400 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 29 Sep 1993 13:14:35 -0400 Message-Id: <199309291714.AA05771@eli.CS.YALE.EDU> Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1084; Wed, 29 Sep 93 13:12:38 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 9019; Wed, 29 Sep 93 13:01:12 EDT Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 12:58:48 -0400 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: TECH: input on gismu place structures X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Erik Rauch Status: RO X-Status: mi'e djan. kau,n .i la lojbab cusku di'e > sarcu - JCB's 1975 equivalent appears to have a du'u (neither nu nor > object) defined for x1 (though he had no real way to express a du'u). I read L1 4th ed. pp 198-99 as meaning that JCB believes that all indirect statements are in fact event descriptions in Loglan. This is a defensible position, but one which I believe leads to more confusions than it is worth. > It appears in any case that x1 is a sumti raising, but should the type > of abstraction be limited to a du'u? (I am coming to think of a du'u > abstract as a second order abstract: ledu'u broda = lenu lenu broda cu > fatci - with the implication that any other abstract is a sumti raising > from a du'u place) > > His wording: x1 is a factually necessary condition for event/process x2 I do not think that a du'u is required here. An event may be necessary for another event; likewise an object may be necessary for an event without any raising: soil is necessary for the event of a tree growing (except in Brooklyn). Re: sidbo. I second Nick's remarks, and I think specifically that the "Portuguese concept of beauty" is specifically: le sidbo be zo melbi bei loi porto the concept of "beautiful" as-thought-by the-mass-of Portuguese-things. or by the same token le si'o melbi kei be loi porto the concept-of something-being-beuatiful as-thought-by etc. using the related "si'o" abstractor, whose place structure is "x1 is a concept of in the mind of x2". Note the mandatory "kei". -- John Cowan sharing account for now