From @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Sat Sep 4 01:58:22 1993 Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by NEBULA.SYSTEMSZ.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Sat, 4 Sep 1993 01:58:22 -0400 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Sat, 4 Sep 1993 01:58:18 -0400 Message-Id: <199309040558.AA15862@eli.CS.YALE.EDU> Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2297; Sat, 04 Sep 93 01:56:46 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 9430; Sat, 04 Sep 93 01:59:41 EDT Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1993 15:56:51 +1000 Reply-To: Nick Nicholas Sender: Lojban list From: Nick Nicholas Subject: Re: GEN: How Nick is faring X-To: snark!cowan@GVLS1.VFL.PARAMAX.COM X-Cc: Lojban Mailing List To: Erik Rauch In-Reply-To: from "John Cowan" at Aug 30, 93 10:00:05 am Status: RO X-Status: To John Cowan respond I thus: # la nitcion. cusku di'e #> (Just to amplify: I've just done Aktionsarten in semantics (states, # activities, #> accomplishments, achievements), and I don't think they've been taught #> properly in Lojban, particularly as to their tense properties --- Dowty's #> tests etc. It'd be far more useful to describe these in the terms that #> they are described in formal semantics --- states are a kind of zasti, #> activities a kind of gasnu/zukte, achievements a kind of binxo, and #> accomplishments a kind of rinka. Thus djuno is a state, cadzu an activity, #> cirko an achievement, and bapli an accomplishment.) #This list looks a bit different from our NU list: states, activities, #achievements, and processes. Is it really the same thing? I really hope they are, and can't see how they can't be. This is a lost of nomenclatures, and the researchers that have pushed them: Vendler Aristotle Ryle Dowty za'i states energiai states states zu'e activities energiai activities activities pu'u accomplishments kineseis task-based complex changes achievements of state mu'e achievements kineseis lucky single changes achievements of state Kenny Mourelatos za'i states states zu'e activities processes \ occurences pu'u performances developments \ events / mu'e performances punctual occurences / And some examples of each: States: be asleep, love, know, sit, stand, lie Activities: make noise, roll, rain, walk, laugh, dance, walk Achievements: notice, realize, ignite, kill, point out Accomplishments: flow, dissolve, build a house, walk a mile And some of the tests: The simple present tense of a state doesn't imply habitually doing it: I know this != mi di'i djuno la'edi'u I run a lot = mi di'i mutce bajra I build chairs = mi di'i zbasu loi stuzi I lose keys = mi di'i cirko loi ckiku You can't spend an hour doing an achievement (and states are iffy too) ?I spent an hour knowing this. I spent an hour running I spent an hour building chairs *I spent an hour losing keys You can't take an hour to do a state or activity *I took an hour to know it *I took an hour to run I took an hour to build a chair I took an hour to notice my keys X is Y'ing implies X has Y'ed, but not if Y is an accomplishment; does not apply to states or achievements I am running -> I have run I am building a chair ! -> I have built a chair An achievement cannot be a complement of 'stop' I stopped believing in Santa I stopped running I stopped building the chair *I stopped recognising faces Only an accomplishment can be a complement of 'finish' *I finished believing in Santa *I finished running I finished building the chair *I finished recognising faces Only activities and accomplishments can be qualified by 'carefully' *I carefully slept I carefully walked I carefully built the chair *I carefully lost my keys Some of these tests have obvious ramifications for Lojban use of eg. TAhE. Like I said, in formal terms, achievements are a kind of binxo, activities a kind of gasnu, and accomplishments a kind of rinka. #Also, in Lojban any brivla can be realized as any event type: there is #le pu'u cadzu, le mu'e djuno, le za'i bapli, and all are perfectly #meaningful. Yeah. And now that I've done Aktionsarten in class, that worries me... Sure, we can do this conversion trick: {za'i morsi} means "dead", {mu'e morsi} means "die", {pu'u morsi} means "kill", and I can't for the life of me work out what {zu'e morsi} means (if it can't mean "kill"). But what use is this flexibility, when we have far better ways of saying all the above? I think some theory needs some beefing up somewhere... ******************************************************************************* A freshman once observed to me: Nick Nicholas am I, of Melbourne, Oz. On the edge of the Rubicon, nsn@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au (IRC: nicxjo) men don't go fishing. CogSci and CompSci & wannabe Linguist. - Alice Goodman, _Nixon In China_ Mail me! Mail me! Mail me! Or don't!!