From @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Mon Sep 6 21:11:42 1993 Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by NEBULA.SYSTEMSZ.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Sun, 5 Sep 1993 21:14:40 -0400 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Sun, 5 Sep 1993 21:14:24 -0400 Message-Id: <199309060114.AA06572@eli.CS.YALE.EDU> Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5741; Sun, 05 Sep 93 21:12:51 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 4224; Sun, 05 Sep 93 21:15:46 EDT Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1993 11:11:42 +1000 Reply-To: Nick Nicholas Sender: Lojban list From: Nick Nicholas Subject: Re: possible sumti-raising place structures of the sisku variety X-To: snark!cowan@GVLS1.VFL.PARAMAX.COM X-Cc: Lojban Mailing List To: Erik Rauch In-Reply-To: from "John Cowan" at Aug 31, 93 02:08:28 pm Status: RO X-Status: To John Cowan respond I thus: #la lojbab. cusku di'e #> cerda heir x1 is an heir to/is to inherit x2 (object/quality) from x3 #> according to rule x4 a 13 (cf. jgina) #(steps into his/her shoes, as it were). I don't think the current wording #is a problem. Agreed. #> fliba fail 'baffle' x1 fails at doing/being x2 (object/state/event); x1 #Raised x2; should be changed to remove "object". Agreed. #> jarco show x1 (person/object) shows/exhibits/displays/reveals x2 #> (object/property) to audience x3 8c 85 #I don't understand why "property" here. Seems to be just a way of saying #"object which has property", which is just "le [se] ckaji". I disagree. You can make it apparent that you have some property. Keep it as is. #> jbera borrow x1 (agent) borrows/temporarily takes/assumes x2 #> (object/property) from source x3 for interval x4 3m 6 #No need for "property" here either. Agreed. {zasni ckaji} is what this should be; the doublet is confusing. #> kargu costly x1 (object/property) is costly/expensive/dear to x2 by #> standard x3 5e 55 (cf. vamji, dirba, vajni) #Don't understand why "property" here. I do, after Iain's argument; I don't like it, but it might as well stay. #> klina clear x1 (object/media) is clear/transparent/without obstacle to #> in-the-clear x2 [transmission] 7j 32 #Irrelevant to this issue. Yup. #> lebna take x1 takes/gets/gains/obtains/seizes/[removes] x2 #> (object/property) from x3 (possessor) 2b 81 #Is "removing a property" really the same as "removing a thing"? I think #"lebna" should be confined to the latter, and some other form found for #"causing a thing not to have a property any longer". I remember, when I saw the Loglan translation of 'decriminalise' as {zekri ckaji lebna}, that I exclaimed "malglico!". This latter should be something more like {to'e zekri ckaji zukte} #> steci specific 'special' x1 is specific/particular/specialized/[special] #> to subset/ind. x2 among x3(s) #Different problem: x3 should be firmly a set. That makes sense to me, though I am ill at these set-numbers. #> cilre learn x1 learns x2 (du'u) about subject x3 from source x4 #> (obj./event)/by method x5 (event/process) *1h 85 (cf. ctuca, tadni, #> djuno, ckule) #Separate problem: the slash before "by method" doesn't belong there. Though we could argue there is raising going on here, I don't think it worthwhile to change the place structure. #> ckana bed x1 is a bed/pallet of material x2 for holding/supporting x3 #> (person/object/event) #I don't understand "event" here. How can an event be supported by a bed? Cleverness about copulation aside, beds support *people* doing things, not the things themselves. Kill the event. #> ckire grateful x1 is grateful/thankful to/appreciative of x2 for x3 #> (object/event/property) 2l 53 [also gratitude (= nunckire or kamckire)] #Raised x3; remove "object". Agreed. #> curmi let 'permit' x1 agent lets/permits/allows x2 (object/event) under #> conditions x3; x1 grants privilege x2 8e 57 #Raised x2; remove "object". We do not permit someone, we permit that #(someone does something). With the pandemic of raising in the language, this is only consistent. Agreed. #> darsi audacity 'dare' x1 shows audacity/chutzpah in behavior x2 #> (event/activity); x1 dares to do/be x2 (object/event) #Raised x2; remove "object". Agreed. #> gidva guide x1 (person/object/event) guides/conducts/pilots/leads x2 #> (event) 5d 17 (cf. jitro, ralju, sazri, te bende, jatna) #I think this is mixed up with "lidne", and should be x1 (person) guides #x2 (person). I'd like some semantic distinctions between lidne, jatna, gidva and ralju made explicit, before I felt competent to say anything. #> kurji take care of 'care' x1 takes-care-of/looks after/attends #> to/provides for/is caretaker for x2 (object/event/person) #I don't know what "event" is doing here; remove. I do (it's "taking care of business"), and see no reason to remove. #> skicu describe x1 tells about/describes x2 (object/event/state) to #> audience x3 with description x4 (property) 7j 97 (cf. lisri) #Not raised; no problem. Yup. #> snura secure x1 is secure/safe from threat x2 (object/event) 9a 34 (cf. #> ckape, kajde, marbi, terpa, xalni) #Ditto. Hm. Actually, you could make a case that this is raised, but it's iffy. Keep it as is. #> spuda reply 'respond' x1 answers/replies to/responds to #> person/object/event/situation x2 with response x3 1h 67 (cf. cusku, #> preti, nabmi, danfu, frati) #Ditto. Ditto my comment. ******************************************************************************* A freshman once observed to me: Nick Nicholas am I, of Melbourne, Oz. On the edge of the Rubicon, nsn@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au (IRC: nicxjo) men don't go fishing. CogSci and CompSci & wannabe Linguist. - Alice Goodman, _Nixon In China_ Mail me! Mail me! Mail me! Or don't!!