From @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Sun Sep 5 21:25:36 1993 Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by NEBULA.SYSTEMSZ.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Mon, 6 Sep 1993 01:24:23 -0400 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Mon, 6 Sep 1993 01:24:17 -0400 Message-Id: <199309060524.AA09666@eli.CS.YALE.EDU> Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6248; Mon, 06 Sep 93 01:22:43 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 4959; Mon, 06 Sep 93 01:25:40 EDT Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1993 01:25:36 -0400 Reply-To: vilva@viikki21.helsinki.fi Sender: Lojban list From: Veijo Vilva Subject: Re: Event contours and ZAhO tcita X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Erik Rauch Status: RO X-Status: > Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1993 19:08:15 EDT > From: Jorge LLambias > Subject: Re: Event contours and ZAhO tcita > la veion cusku di'e > > > > Let's approach the question of ZAhO tcita from a new angle. > > The purpose of ZAhO tcita - or of any sumti tcita - is to > > reinsert a sumti place which has been 'deleted' from the > > definition of a gismu (or a selbri). I.e. > > > > x1 broda x2 x3 ZAhO xz = x1 broda' x2 x3 x4 > > > > where the definition of broda' = the definition of broda > > augmented with something like "which takes place in the ZAhO > > phase of x4" (again omitting details). > > This is fine, but then what is the definition of broda' for a > PU ZAhO tcita, say "puza'o"? > > "which takes place in the past of the za'o phase of x4"? > (This splits "puza'o") this would be x1 broda x2 x3 pu le nu ZAhO brode , where (le nu brode = x4) BTW, I would make a reformulation of my original: The purpose of a sumti tcita is to make visible a sumti place which originally was left away from the definition of a gismu. When the place structure of a gismu is defined, all the possible places are considered and those which seem most relevant are retained. This doesn't mean, however, that the rest disappear from the underlying relationship. They still are part of it and the sumti tcita are the mechanism which makes it possible to define -- at least a part of -- the sumti which have no permanent sumti place. This means that both broda and broda' in the example are actually just two separate names refering to the same underlying relation and to two specific subsets of the set of all the possible sumti places. > or "which takes place in the za'o phase of x4, which is in the past"? > (This keeps puza'o as one tense, but is different from the use of > "pu" as tcita.) This (more or less) is the interpretation lojbab gave. The meaning of a puza'o tcita matches the meaning of a puza'o tense: x1 broda x2 x3 puza'o x4 (x1 broda x2 x3) takes place in the (za'o place of x4) which is in the past x1 puza'o broda x2 x3 (x1 broda x2 x3) is in it's za'o phase which is in the past (x1 broda x2 x3) was in it's za'o phase Similarly x1 broda x2 x3 pu x4 (x1 broda x2 x3) took place in the past of x4 x1 pu broda x2 x3 (x1 broda x2 x3) took place in the past [of the present] The difference between pu and puza'o used as sumti tcita stem from the difference between the same used as tenses, IMHO. > > Specifying a sumti has generally the following consequencies: > > > > (1) it NEVER does give a contour to the outer bridi -- all > > the sumti must be specifiable at the same time and > > different sumti might imply different contours, even > > mutually contradictory. > > I'm not sure why this is a GENERAL consequence of specifying a sumti. > It can only apply to ZAhO tcita sumti, or am I missing something? > Of course it is possible to say things that are contradictory, with > any interpretation. Here I am talking about the event contours of the outer bridi. If ZAhO tcita sumti are the only sumti which might change the contour then the rule can be given in the above form without getting into trouble with the other types. BTW. I do agree with John Cowan in that I see a deeper connection between the outer point event and the phase of the sumti event in addition to the temporal sync. The formulation in the last revision of the 'Imaginary Journeys' (Rev. 3.17, available from the FTP server) seems to me quite adequate. > > A change in the contour would also imply a change in the > > relationship between the sumti - and this is hardly an > > acceptable option (i.e. that specifying a sumti would > > change the relationship between the rest). > Why? Any added sumti places modifies the relationship in some way. It isn't a question of adding a sumti place but inserting sumti into a place which just has been made visible > Compare: > > __mi dunda le cakla do__ > I give you the chocolate. > and > __mi dunda le cakla do bai le mi mamta__ > I give you the chocolate compelled by my mother. here the original ought to read __mi dunda le cakla do [bai] zo'e__ because all the sumti places are there even if they are not expressed in the definition of "dunda". The question of coersion is left open in the definition but the possibility is not excluded -- a "bai noda" is required if we are to state explicitly that there is no coersion involved. The "bai" is just like another FA which makes it possible to fill one of the uncountably large number of potential sumti places -- which could have been retained in the definition had we considered them important enough -- without specifying all the intervening ones. > Is the relationship between "mi", "le cakla" and "do" unchanged? there is no change what so ever; inserting "le mi mamta" just adds a tiny bit of information Let's take another example. c1 cliva c2 c3 c4 seka'a k2 = c1 klama k2 c2 c3 c4 or to put it in reverse k1 klama zo'e k3 k4 k5 = k1 cliva k3 k4 k5 [seka'a zo'e] If we take the bridi "k1 klama zo'e k3 k4 k5" and replace "zo'e" with a concrete k2 this corresponds to addind "seka'a k2" to "k1 cliva k3 k4 k5". Replacing "zo'e" with "k2" in no way changes the relationship between k1, k3, k4 and k5. Analogously adding "seka'a k2" to "c1 cliva c2 c3 c4" in no way changes the relationship between c1, c2, c3 and c4. In both cases we are just supplying some extra information. Basically both klama and cliva are incarnations of an underlying super-klama relation which describes movement and includes all imaginable sumti places expressible with BAI, ZAhO tags etc. ad nauseam. The definitions of klama, cliva and other movement gismu just pick a suitable subset of these myriad places. The important thing to note is that inserting a sumti into anyone of the underlying invisible sumti places will have no effect either on the relationship between the already expressed sumti or the contour of the event. The contour is something external, not part of the structure of the relationship. All the possible contours are inherent in the relationship but NOT expressible using sumti. The sumti places can be filled with references to external events and thus make it possible to specify relationships between the outer bridi and these external events -- whether the external event descriptors are inserted into the existing sumti places or tagged on with any kind of sumti tcita. > > (2) it can - and almost invariably does - specify a 'phase' > > for the sumti itself. Each time a sumti is inserted into > > a sumti place in a bridi a specific aspect/phase/contour > > of the sumti itself is raised. It doesn't matter whether > > the sumti place in question is a standard place or a tagged > > place - there is no principal difference, standard places > > just omit the tags. > Again, I don't see why this is general. > > __mi xenru le nu carvi__ > I regret the rain. > > What specific aspect/phase/contour of the sumti is raised? For "mi" : le ka xenru le nu carvi If I take "mi" and insert it into "zo'e xenru le nu carvi" replacing the "zo'e", I raise an aspect of me which in a way is analogous to raising an aspect of an event -- the phases of an event are it's properties, an event can have, e.g., the property of being in it's own aftermath, just like I can regret the rain on one occasion and relish it on another. Expressing the contour of an event is very close to attribution. Similarly for "le nu carvi" : leka se xenru mi > mi zutse le srasu za'o le nu co'a carvi > *I keep sitting on the grass as it starts to rain. > > Under the current interpretation, I'd have to say: > > mi za'o zutse le srasu ca le nu co'a carvi > > but then, it is less clear that the "natural end" of my sitting > on the grass is the start of the rain. Whatever the system, it is always possible to find examples where another interpretation would result in a simpler or more elegant expression. (I guess we all agree on this :-) Personally I must say that I find it extremely hard to interpret your za'o tag example the way you'd like it to be interpreted. When I try to see the za'o giving phase to the outer bridi, this results in mi zutse le srasu za'o[ku] ?!?! le nu co'a carvi and I feel that the sumti is left hanging in the air with no connection what so ever to the rest of the bridi. I would express your example in the following way mi za'o zutse le srasu ba'o le nu co'a carvi > Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1993 14:09:21 EDT > From: Jorge Llambias > Subject: Re: Event contours and ZAhO tcita > la djan cusku di'e > > > > There are many constructs that are grammatical but as yet have no known > > use: > > > > mi klama le zarci ve'i le nu do dansu le bisli > > > > Somebody may someday mean something by this, but I at least do not > > understand it. (I know several things it probably doesn't mean, > > though.) > > Well, I would say that this means "My going to the store takes place in > a tiny region of space, which is somehow related to your dancing to the > ice." The phrase makes as little sense in Lojban as it does in English, > but not because there is any problem with the semantics rules. (Don't tell > me that it's the dancing that takes place in the tiny space, please!) I > have much more difficulty in finding a meaning for the "dansu le bisli" > than for the "ve'i". Here is one possible interpretation I go to the store via the tiny space of your dancing to the sound of ice. Not too weird (but then, I spent part of my summer vacation struggling with "Finnegan's Wake", got about halfway through). I think it might actually be quite useful to limit the dancing to the tiny space -- the spatial extent of the dancing would then define the size of the otherwise rather vague interval. To take another example mi'o casnu le nu tadni la lojban kei ve'i le nu klama le ckule We discuss studying Lojban on the short stretch to the school And still another mi zbasu le karce ve'i le kumfa I assemble the car within the small space of the room as opposed to the following three variations on the same theme mi zbasu le karce ne'i le cmalu kumfa I assemble the car in the small room mi ve'i zbasu le karce ne'i le kumfa I assemble the car in a small space within the room mi zbasu le karce ne'i le ve'i kumfa I assemble the car within the room occupying a small space How about it? There are, of course, other possibilities, but I think this interpretation wouldn't contradict anything and would have at least some expressional merit. > I would like to be able to say: > > __mi sipna za'o le tcika be le nu mi ta'e co'a gunka__ > *I over-sleep beyond the time I usually start to work. > mi za'o sipna ba'o le mu'e tcika le nu mi ta'e co'a gunka I think this catches all the nuances and even more. co'o mi'e veion ------------------------------------------------------------------ Veijo Vilva vilva@viikki21.helsinki.fi