Message-Id: <199309110343.AA00501@eli.CS.YALE.EDU>
Date:         Sat, 11 Sep 1993 13:41:45 +1000
Reply-To: Nick Nicholas <nsn@MULLIAN.EE.MU.OZ.AU>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU>
From: Nick Nicholas <nsn@MULLIAN.EE.MU.OZ.AU>
Subject:      Re: TECH: states, activities,               etc. (was RE: GEN: How Nick is faring)
To: Erik Rauch <rauch>
In-Reply-To:  <no.id> from "Iain Alexander" at Sep 10, 93 01:26:04 pm
Status: RO

To Iain Alexander respond I thus:

#I don't think real language fits quite as neatly into these
#categories of event as you appear to want it to.
#Any given verb / gismu may or may not carry the implication
#of a particular style of event, and it may also depend on
#the way it is used.

#(I haven't come across this stuff before, but it all seems
#fairly common-sense, so I'll assume it makes sense to deal
#with it in that fashion.)

You're quite right; indeed, "to run from A to B" (or, as we were given
it, "to run a mile") is one of those examples where an activity can
become an accomplishment. To be sure, these categories are fluid; but
they *are* there, and they are significant. My argument is that not all
predicates make sense under all Aktionsarten (btw, the term is just German
for {fasnu tajdi}); and which Aktionsart the predicate is determines
which ZAhO can sensibly be used with it. This is a two-way street, of
course; using an unexpected ZAhO will shift the meaning of the predicate.
{cirko} is an achievement, but {co'a cirko} seems to imply {co'a ta'e
cirko}, which is an activity. But then, you have argued as much in your
article, I just noticed.

#So, on the one hand, I don't think you can just pick a verb or
#gismu and say "this is an achievement", or whatever, since it
#depends on the context.

No argument from me, though I do think it slightly irresponsible to say
"you can use any Aktionsart with any predicate"; Aktionsarten are not
arbitrary, and it needs to be pointed out that some combinations are,
as you say, grammatical nonsense.

#On the other hand, I believe that these ideas are very useful,
#and help us decide what combinations of NU and ZAhO and other
#qualifiers such as arguments are likely to be meaningful.

Precisely.

#> --- states are a kind of zasti,
#> activities a kind of gasnu/zukte, achievements a kind of binxo, and
#> accomplishments a kind of rinka.> ...
#I believe the goal-oriented nature of {zukte} makes
#it typically an accomplishment, and a more convincing
#one than {rinka}, which could easily be an achievement,
#for example.  Likewise, I don't find {gasnu} a particularly
#helpful example of an activity, but the best alternative
#I can find at the moment is {cuntu}.)

Yeah. I was really just trying to translate the formal semantic account
of these, which is, respectively: broda(x); DO(x, broda(x)) [cf. our
{gasnu} lujvo]; BECOME(x, broda(x)) [which, I take it, is where Jimc
got his {binxo lenu co'eli'o} construct from?]; and CAUSE(phi, psi) [where
phi and psi are events].

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