Message-Id: <199309020952.AA00502@eli.CS.YALE.EDU>
Date:         Thu, 2 Sep 1993 10:40:37 BST
Reply-To: I.Alexander.bra0125@oasis.icl.co.uk
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU>
From: Iain Alexander <I.Alexander.bra0125@OASIS.ICL.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: TECH: possible sumti-raising place structures of the sisku
              variety
To: Erik Rauch <rauch>
Status: O

> fliba fail 'baffle' x1 fails at doing/being x2 (object/state/event); x1
> is a failure 8g 4 (cf. cfila, snada, srera, troci)

I don't think an object is appropriate here.  {*fliba le broda} ought
to be e.g. {fliba lenu broda} or {fliba loza'i broda}.


> kargu costly x1 (object/property) is costly/expensive/dear to x2 by
> standard x3 5e 55 (cf. vamji, dirba, vajni)

I'm not sure about this one.  Is it the object itself which is costly,
or its acquisition?  And I can also think of activities which are
expensive.  I can't make up my mind what the answer is, but it
probably also applies to a whole host of related gismu such as
{jdima, pleji, vamji, vecnu, cinmu}.


> curmi let 'permit' x1 agent lets/permits/allows x2 (object/event) under
> conditions x3; x1 grants privilege x2 8e 57

> darsi audacity 'dare' x1 shows audacity/chutzpah in behavior x2
> (event/activity); x1 dares to do/be x2 (object/event) a 6 [x1 is bold];
> (cf. virnu)

> dicra interrupt 'disturb, disrupt' x1 (event)
> interrupts/stops/halts/[disrupts] x2 (object/event/process) due to
> quality x3 4d 60 (cf. zunti, fanza, raktu, denpa)

> festi waste x1(s) is/are waste product(s) [left to waste] by x2
> (object/event) a 20 (cf. xaksu)

> snura secure x1 is secure/safe from threat x2 (object/event) 9a 34 (cf.
> ckape, kajde, marbi, terpa, xalni)

> spuda reply 'respond' x1 answers/replies to/responds to
> person/object/event/situation x2 with response x3 1h 67 (cf. cusku,
> preti, nabmi, danfu, frati)

> tarion x2
> (object/event) 8d 62 (cf. cmavo list zau, natfe)

> zivle invest x1 (agent) invests resources x2 in investment x3 expecting
> return/profit x4 (object(s)/event) 8d 4

(I'm not sure what happened at *tarion - it looks like something
got garbled.)

These all look like the concrete option is metonymic for an event
involving that object.

> kalte hunt x1 hunts/stalks prey/quarry x2 for purpose x3 as 15 [also
> verb fish (= fipkalte)]; (cf. jersi, kavbu, sisku)

I think this is probably all right.  I suspect the cases which appear
to cause trouble arise from malglico use of "hunt" when we really
mean "seek".

I didn't spot any others that cause any problem.

> binxo bix     bi'o become
> x1 becomes/changes into x2 under conditions x3;
> (cf. cenba, galfi, stika, zasni)                 2c 217

This wasn't on your list, but I think I've seen someone use it
with a property (e.g. {binxo loka blanu} for "turn blue"), and
I'm not sure what the alternative is;  maybe {zenba}, but I don't
find it very convincing;  maybe {cpacu}, although I don't remember
anyone using it that way.  I believe I missed a discussion about
{binxo} sometime before I joined the list (at the beginning of
June 1992).  I don't think there's any hidden sumti-raising going
on here, but there may be an option in the type of sumti.

co'o mi'e .i,n.