Message-Id: <199309032315.AA01725@eli.CS.YALE.EDU>
Date:         Sat, 4 Sep 1993 00:14:38 +0100
Reply-To: ucleaar@UCL.AC.UK
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU>
From: Mr Andrew Rosta <ucleaar@UCL.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: TECH: Mark Shoulson waiting for a taxi
To: Erik Rauch <rauch>
In-Reply-To:  (Your message of Fri,               03 Sep 93 09:52:51 MST.) <9309031654.AA49094@link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk>
Status: RO

lai jimc. dihe cusku
> > What I am looking for is expressing conditions where the statement
> > is false if he rejects any taxi prior to getting in one. I'm suggesting
> > "loi" for this.
[...]
> In any event, the essence of masses is not the
> non-specificity of their members, but the relations or organization
> among the members.

Indeed the mass/'distribution' distinction is different from
+/-specific, as we can see from  le : lo :: lei : loi.

> > What is an example of an in-mind non-specific sumti?
>
> To use a tasteless example, anti-homosexual people (in American
> English) refer to homosexuals as "queers" {cizra}.  A typical usage
> takes the form: "The problem in this town is queers".  The speaker is
> not referring to any specific "queer", and in fact is referring to a
> mass; nonetheless, there are lots of weird/deviant/bizarre people (and
> non-people) who are not homosexual, and thus an in-mind restriction is
> being placed on the sumti.  Thus I would use lei (in-mind mass) rather
> than loi (really-is mass):

I would use lei, too - but I think the mass *is* specific: you
have in mind a specific mass of homosexuals. But loi would also
be possible, unless you (or your hypothetical speaker) believes
that homosexuals aren't literally queer.

Perhaps if it is the case that
  do ba speni lo dotco "You will marry some German or other"
but not
  do ba speni le dotco "You will marry a certain German"
And you also want to (in the spirit of your example) equate
Germany with Sodom, then there is quandary about the choice
between:
  do ba speni lo ganxygletu
  do ba speni le ganxygletu  [gismu from memory - may be wrong]
nn the one hand, I don't know who it is you will marry - all
I know is that they'll be German: so lo ganxygletu is preferable.
On the other hand, lo ganxygletu excludes Germans who aren't
ganxygletu, which is not what I want: there's no guarantee your
spouse will be a ganxygletu, but there is a gurantee they'll
be German. So le ganxygletu is preferable.

I guess you, John & Lojbab would definitely use "le ganxygletu"
here, but I wonder what Colin thinks, since he has been taking
the same line as me so far.

I apologise in advance if the above causes offence. (For the
record I have a very positive, approbatory & zabna attitude towards
loi nu speni, loi dotco and loi ganxygletu.)

------
And