Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by NEBULA.SYSTEMSZ.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Sep 1993 14:36:07 -0400 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Sep 1993 14:36:01 -0400 Message-Id: <199309011836.AA22869@eli.CS.YALE.EDU> Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8949; Wed, 01 Sep 93 14:34:25 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 9774; Wed, 01 Sep 93 14:34:23 EDT Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1993 19:21:23 +0100 Reply-To: Colin Fine Sender: Lojban list From: Colin Fine Subject: Re: TECH: specifity & definiteness To: Erik Rauch Status: O X-Status: X-From-Space-Date: Wed Sep 1 20:21:23 1993 X-From-Space-Address: @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET John Cowan answering And: ++++++++++> > Definiteness is non-truth- > conditional, so appropriate for a .UI cmavo, How's that again? "I saw the man" entails "I saw a man", but not vice versa, so truth conditions are definitely affected >++++++++++ I think there is mostly a terminological problem here. 'I saw a man' is specific, because I did see a particular man, even though I may not in fact have enough information ever to identify him again. But it is not definite - I am not identifying him, or implying that either of us knows his identity. 'I saw the man' is specific and definite, and (in English) cannot be new information (unless there is a relative clause added, or something). Look at these examples: I will buy an apple -spec -def (but I'm going to see a show tonight is ambiguous +/-spec -def) I will buy the apple +spec +def I bought an apple +spec -def I bought the apple +spec +def (I saw a show last night: +spec -def) Compare the lojban for the above examples: ai mi terve'u lo plise I will buy an apple -spec ai mi zgana le/lo draci I'm going to see a show tonight +/- spec (NB - for example only - my preferred form for this would be ai mi te draci) ai mi terve'u le plise I will buy the apple OR I will buy an apple (that I have in mind) +spec mi pu terve'u le plise bi'u I bought an/this apple +spec mi pu terve'u le plise I bought the apple +spec As I mentioned in an early posting, I think mi pu terve'u lo plise I bought apples -spec is a little anomalous, and says either that I want to emphasise that they really are apples, or that I want to ignore their definiteness. I conclude that specificity is truth-functional, not independently expressed in English (-spec -> -def, but not the converse), and regularly expressed in Lojban by le/lo. zu'unai definiteness is not truth-functional, is regularly expressed in English, and is not systematically expressed in Lojban. Sometimes bi'u will get it across, but not always. Colin