Message-Id: <MAILQUEUE2-102.931015065141.288@hylkn1.Helsinki.FI>
Date:         Fri, 15 Oct 1993 01:48:05 -0400
Reply-To: Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Sender: vilva
From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Subject:      TECH: misc transitive place structure issues
To:         lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
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Here is another possible transitive to intransive change

jicla stir x1 (agent/force) stirs/mixes/[roils/agitates] fluid
(gas/liquid) x2 with tool/utensil x3 as 8 [convection (= nenflejicla)];
(cf. fanza, tunta, mixre)

perhaps change to

x1 convects/roils/is agitated [by tool/utensil x2?] [by force/activity
(abstract) x2 (which might include both agent and tool)?]

lojbab
================
Here are the other gismu that may have unnecessary/inappropriate
transitive/agentive places.  In most of the cases I have suggested
a possible alternate intransitive.  In some cases the intransitive
could be expressed using a binxo-based lujvo.  You may be able to think
of other solutions, too.  Comments on each/all welcome.

fatri fai distribute x1 distributes/allots/allocates/shares x2 among x3
resulting in shares/portions x4; (x3/x4 fa'u) 8c 22 [also spread, share
out, apportion]; (cf. cmavo list fa'u, fendi, preja)

   x1 becomes distributed among ...

katna ka'a cut x1 (agent) cuts/splits/divides x2 (object) using
tool/blade x3 into pieces x4 5c 25 (cf. kakpa, sraku for cutting into
without division; plixa, dakfu, jinci, porpi, spofu, tunta, xrani)

   x1 divides into pieces ...

kavbu kav capture 'catch' x1 captures/catches/apprehends/seizes/nabs x2
with trap/restraint x3 8e 33 [catch something thrown (= rerkavbu)]; (cf.
jersi, kalte, pinfu, sisku, rinju)

   x1 trap/restraint captures x2

lasna la'a fasten 'lash' x1 (agent) fastens/connects/attaches x2 to x3
with fastener x4 3f 17 (cf. jorne, fenso, jgena)

   x1 becomes fastened to x2 by fastener x3
   (may be similar to jornybinxo)

lumci lum lu'i wash x1 (agent) washes/cleanses x2 of soil/contaminant x3
in/with cleaning material(s) x4 *5g 16 (cf. djacu, jinru, litki, zbabu,
jinsa)

    x1 is washed/cleansed of x2

mipri mip secret x1 keeps x2 secret/hidden from x3 by method x4; x2 is a
secret 3l 53 [intransitive hidden/secret, without an agent (= selcri or
nalterju'o)]; (cf. stace, mifra, sivni, djuno, cirko)

    x1 is secret/hidden from x2

polje plo fold x1 (agent/force) folds/creases x2 at locus/loci/forming
crease(s)/bend(s) x3 a 0 [use cardinal-value sumti in x3, or rapli, to
indicate multiple folds]; (cf. korcu, cinje)

    x1 becomes folded/creased at x2

rinci drain x1 (agent) drains/strains liquid x2 from source x3 through
drain/strainer x4 a 0 (cf. pambe, tisna, setca, flecu, muvdu)

    x1 drains from x2 through x3

rinju ri'u restrain x1 (object/agent) restrains/constrains x2
(object/event) under conditions x3 3m 19 (cf. zifre, ralte, pinfu)

    object/agent confusion in x1 is a red flag to me.  Intransitive x1 is
    a 'restraint', transitive is a 'restrainer/agent'

setca se'a insert x1 (agent) inserts/interposes x2 into x3 6f 37 (cf.
rinci, tisna)

    intransitive may be covered by nenrybinxo

sfasa sfa punish 'spank, castigate' x1 (agent) punishes x2 for
(event/state/action) x3 with punishment x4 (event/state) a 2 (cf. cnemu,
pleji, venfu, zekri)

    Punishment x1 punishes x2 for x3

sisti sti cease x1 [agent] ceases/stops/halts activity/process/state x2
[not necessarily completing it] 1g 117 (cf. fanmo, mulno, cfari, denpa)

    x2 ceases (not necessarily completing)

tcica tic deceive 'cheat, trick' x1 (agent/event) deceives/dupes/fools
x2 about subject x3 by method/action x4 (event/activity) a 36 (cf.
stace)

    agent/event confusion looks like transitive/intransitive confusion

tisna tis fill 'stuff' x1 fills/stuffs x2 with material x3; x1
inserts/pours x3 into x2 6f 35 (cf. culno, kunti, rinci, setca, culno)

    x1 fills with material x2

tunta tun poke 'stab' x1 (agent) stimulates/pokes/jabs/stabs/prods x2
(experiencer) with x3 [stimulus/pointed object] a 1 [stimulus need not
be physical object]; (cf. balre, dakfu, darxi, fanza, jicla, katna,
tikpa)

     stimulus/object x1 stimulates x2
     This has the added problem of potential sumti-raising and/or extensive
     broadness of concept.  The stimulus (which need not cause a response)
     is an event.  This may be confused with a related concept of stimulus
     specifically by poking, etc.  But if these are to be separated, the
     one eliminated needs a good lujvo.

vimcu vic vi'u remove x1 removes/subtracts/deducts x2 from x3
with/leaving result/remnant/remainder x4 *7e 43 [alienation is
inherent]; (cf. lebna)

     x1 is removed from x2
     (this may simply be canci)

tunlo tul tu'o swallow x1 (agent/throat) swallows/engulfs x2 5c 2 (cf.
citka, pinxe)

     Does your throat or you do the swallowing?  This may be agent/object
     confusion, or it may be a mass concept masquerading as metonymy

lojbab

lojbab