Message-Id: <MAILQUEUE2-102.931013114226.256@hylkn1.Helsinki.FI>
Date:         Wed, 13 Oct 1993 05:40:58 -0400
Reply-To: Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Sender: vilva
From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Subject:      Re: means/vehicle
To:         protin@usl.com
Cc:         lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
Content-Length: 1836
Lines: 37

Almost.  I rather tend to see klama as a motion picture, and indeed try to
see all gismu as motion pictures rather than snapshots, in which case there
is more dimensionality to all three and their contrast with each other.

BTW, Nora who is actually trying to follow this thread (but is still back
around when I got started having just about finsished reading Nick's paper
and the direct commentary thereon, comments in general
about the lean gismu and fat gismu issue, that most of the examples and
discussion have tended to a)use nouns as examples and b) use them as nouns.
English speakers tend to view nouns as time-free snapshots, and verbs as
"movies".  When you view things as movies, it becomes much eaiser to
realize how many variables are related implicvitly in the concept, and the
justification for fat gismu gets rather more understandable.

The motion verbs have been the only ones discussed that are verbs, and

note that the question is on whether there are as many as 5 places, rather
than the 2 places of gerku.

As English speakers, we just feel more comfortable wiht verbs having more
places.  But in Lojban EVERY gismu is a verb.  (And a noun, and an adjec
tive ...).

I'd like to see commentary that explicitly takes this factor into account,
and it will be collected for Nora, who may eventually get caught up and
boy does she have a lot of comments ...

BTW, people are focussingon the klama related gismu of motion, but I am far
more unsure that we have done good by the other half of the words of motion,
which include punji, benji, mrilu, lebna, cpacu, muvdu and a few others.
Hmm.  Guess they are more than half.  There is a lot
more tangle in these concepts and I am never quite sure we have them straight-
forward and covering all the semantic space (or on the other hand overlapping to
too much).

lojbab