From @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Sat Oct 16 10:16:22 1993 Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by NEBULA.SYSTEMSZ.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Fri, 15 Oct 1993 10:18:02 -0400 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Fri, 15 Oct 1993 10:17:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199310151417.AA03915@eli.CS.YALE.EDU> Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3670; Fri, 15 Oct 93 10:15:53 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 9268; Fri, 15 Oct 93 10:17:57 EDT Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 00:16:22 +1000 Reply-To: Nick Nicholas Sender: Lojban list From: Nick Nicholas Subject: Re: TECH: jarco place structure X-To: lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET X-Cc: Lojban Mailing List To: Erik Rauch In-Reply-To: <199310150542.AA26443@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> from "Logical Language Group" at Oct 15, 93 01:41:32 am Status: RO X-Status: To Logical Language Group respond I thus: #The intransitive is therefore x1 displays property x2 [to audience x3?] #[in manner/by means of x4?] #However it is NOT clear how all this gives us transitive display of an #object; i.e. "x1 shows the rock to the audience". I guess you could #phrase it as a property: "ko'a jarcygasnu leka zo'e rokci" but am not #sure this is really satisfactory. Funny this. The place structure I initially came up with for jarcygau I thought counterintuitive: g1 j1 j2 j3 j4 --- le gasnu cu jarcygau le jarco le se jarco le te jarco le ve jarco: the agent shows the object showing such-and-such a property to such-and-such an audience by such-and-such means. But in this context, it's clearly appropriate. le rokci is le jarco, under the new interpretation, and it is just as consistently le se jarcygau. If the audience is not shown (jarcygau) the rock, it cannot show (jarco) its properties to that audience. Admittedly, it's something of a mental leap to go from one concept to the other, but I guess we should live with what we default with in natural languages: words can cover a fairly broad semantic range. I don't see how a means place of jarco would hurt, but the unspecified property in jarcygau will admittedly be quite a problem, and I can see no way around it... "Kai` sa`n swqh~kan t'akriba` piota`, N N O nsn@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au kai` sa`n plhsi'aze pia` [h [w'ra te'sseres, I I L IRC:nicxjo RL:shaddupnic sto`n e'rwta doqh~kan eutuxei~s." C C A University of Melbourne. K.P.Kaba'fhs, _Du'o Ne'oi, 23 E'ws 24 Etw~n_ K H S *Ceci n'est pas un .sig*