From @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Sat Oct 23 04:07:33 1993 Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by NEBULA.SYSTEMSZ.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Sat, 23 Oct 1993 08:10:53 -0400 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Sat, 23 Oct 1993 08:10:50 -0400 Message-Id: <199310231210.AA01551@eli.CS.YALE.EDU> Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5112; Sat, 23 Oct 93 08:06:47 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 3267; Sat, 23 Oct 93 08:09:47 EDT Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1993 08:07:33 -0400 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: Event contours and ZAhO tcita X-To: protin@usl.com X-Cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Erik Rauch Status: RO X-Status: As the original pronouncer of the infinite BAI theory, I will give my current reading. I've been wrong too often when I say that I said something in the pastm though I suspect this is not too far removed from what I've said before. When you state a bridi, all of the places of the place structure are there, and if not specified, have a value of zo'e. This states a specific relationship between objects which is the definition of the Lojban word. If one sumti is really not there, you have a slightly different relation. If you have an extra sumti, it is also a slightly different relation. This is because predicate logic, by its nature, states claims of relationships between a specific number of arguments. Thus the BAIs not spoken are not merely ellipsized. If added, they claim an added piece to the relationship. But if not stated, they are not part of the bridi, and their association is no more than the destination place of litru - not there. HOWEVER - in the real universe, we have -- a universe. Everything in the univ universe is more or less interdependent with everything else, and with the universe itself in the form of a location in time and space. Thus there is a sense in which any given relationship is an infinite relationship. The fact that you don't make statements about that relationship doesn't mean it does not exist. I see the extra BAIs as being like those extra aspects of the universal relationship. They are effectively zi'o 'd out if left unstated - you cannot determine truth claims based on any value assignable to them. But philosophically, I consider them to be there still. Some added BAIs are so implicitly tied to the relationship, at least in my mind, that I find it hard to dissociate the relationship from them. A statement without a tense to me implies the same relationship with a tense specified. But as a claim, the Lojban must be evaluated without the tense, since it is not claimed as part of the relationship. This is why some bridi can be taken as mere potentials. It may turn out that there is a subset of the BAI places that we will recognize as being necessary to specify or concretize any relationship within the context of the universe. But I don't claim to know how to do this. But all of the unstated BAIs are still potentially there - they bring in new links into the relationship, amking it richer and more specific. It is this sense of the POTENTIAL presence of all BAIs that is the critical aspect of my view of the language. I do not claim that actually adding them leaves the original bridi unchanged. And, yes Art, you have an ancient gismu list, although it is the last one that was published up until only last month (which new list has only been announced on Lojban List). The list posted to the ftp server is much more recent, much more detailed, etc. (the printed list is slightly newer than the last ftp version, I think, but this is irrelevant, since I am trying to get the last couple of pages of notes typed in to the computer and then there will be still a newer version. But by all means update to the ftp version at least. lojbab