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Date:         Sat, 23 Oct 1993 18:36:59 -0600
Reply-To: Chris Bogart <cbogart@CSN.ORG>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU>
From: Chris Bogart <cbogart@CSN.ORG>
Subject:      beginner questions: the lord's prayer
X-To:         Lojban mailing list <lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
To: Erik Rauch <rauch>
Status: RO
X-Status: 

coi,

  I've just started trying to gain a beginning understanding
of Lojban grammar, and I was working with the translation of
the Lord's Prayer which I found on the server, along with
some grammar descriptions and word lists.  I've ordered the
bulk of the material by s-mail, and I'm not 100% confident
that the things I downloaded are the latest version of the
language; that may be part of my problem.

  Anyway, one line of the prayer says:

        ".i le do nobli turni be la ter. ku se cfari "

  which is explained in English as:

        "[Your  {noble rule  <of Earth>}]  [be initiated]."

First of all, according to my gismu list, "cfari" is
intransitive, so the word "se" should be omitted; the first
place of cfari is the thing being initiated.  Is this a
mistake, or am I using the wrong gismu list?

Secondly, "turni" means to govern, so "le turni ku" should
mean "governor"; and "le do nobli turni be la ter. ku" should
mean "your noble governor over the earth", not "your noble
rule over the earth".  Maybe the rafsi "nun-" would help?

Finally, my understanding of the prayer, at least as usually
translated into English, is that "Your kingdom come" means
not "Your kingdom is coming" but "May your kingdom come".
Would that be best expressed by starting the sentence
with ".a'o"?  (I don't mean to imply that every word of the
English ought to be translated; I'm just asking for learning
purposes.)

The revised bridi would read:

        ".i .a'o le do nobli nunturni be fi la ter. ku cfari "

As I said, I'm just starting this, so I apologize if my
question shows my ignorance of finer points; I'm sort of
skipping ahead here, since I haven't seen all the grammar
materials yet.

Thanks,
chris bogart
cbogart@quetzal.com