Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by NEBULA.SYSTEMSZ.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 13 Oct 1993 05:43:19 -0400 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 13 Oct 1993 05:43:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199310130943.AA00367@eli.CS.YALE.EDU> Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3552; Wed, 13 Oct 93 05:41:22 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 4533; Wed, 13 Oct 93 05:44:09 EDT Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 05:40:58 -0400 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: means/vehicle X-To: protin@usl.com X-Cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Erik Rauch Status: RO X-Status: X-From-Space-Date: Wed Oct 13 01:40:58 1993 X-From-Space-Address: @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Almost. I rather tend to see klama as a motion picture, and indeed try to see all gismu as motion pictures rather than snapshots, in which case there is more dimensionality to all three and their contrast with each other. BTW, Nora who is actually trying to follow this thread (but is still back around when I got started having just about finsished reading Nick's paper and the direct commentary thereon, comments in general about the lean gismu and fat gismu issue, that most of the examples and discussion have tended to a)use nouns as examples and b) use them as nouns. English speakers tend to view nouns as time-free snapshots, and verbs as "movies". When you view things as movies, it becomes much eaiser to realize how many variables are related implicvitly in the concept, and the justification for fat gismu gets rather more understandable. The motion verbs have been the only ones discussed that are verbs, and note that the question is on whether there are as many as 5 places, rather than the 2 places of gerku. As English speakers, we just feel more comfortable wiht verbs having more places. But in Lojban EVERY gismu is a verb. (And a noun, and an adjec tive ...). I'd like to see commentary that explicitly takes this factor into account, and it will be collected for Nora, who may eventually get caught up and boy does she have a lot of comments ... BTW, people are focussingon the klama related gismu of motion, but I am far more unsure that we have done good by the other half of the words of motion, which include punji, benji, mrilu, lebna, cpacu, muvdu and a few others. Hmm. Guess they are more than half. There is a lot more tangle in these concepts and I am never quite sure we have them straight- forward and covering all the semantic space (or on the other hand overlapping to too much). lojbab