Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by NEBULA.SYSTEMSZ.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Sat, 16 Oct 1993 08:06:08 -0400 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Sat, 16 Oct 1993 08:06:04 -0400 Message-Id: <199310161206.AA01387@eli.CS.YALE.EDU> Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7148; Sat, 16 Oct 93 08:04:09 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 8826; Sat, 16 Oct 93 08:06:54 EDT Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 08:04:39 -0400 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: TECH: misc transitive place structure issues X-To: nsn@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU X-Cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Erik Rauch Status: RO X-Status: X-From-Space-Date: Sat Oct 16 04:04:39 1993 X-From-Space-Address: @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Nick responds to Lojbab (me) >I salute the attempt to tidy the gi'uste up (one last time %^) ) of >"transitives", though I do think a clarification is in order.... So, I don't know my linguistic terminology too well (yet?) %^) I never really understood what a transitive was before (assuming I do now). >#rinju ri'u restrain x1 (object/agent) restrains/constrains x2 >#(object/event) under conditions x3 3m 19 (cf. zifre, ralte, pinfu) ># object/agent confusion in x1 is a red flag to me. Intransitive x1 is ># a 'restraint', transitive is a 'restrainer/agent' > >Make it nonagentive; just remember that it'll have a funny place order in the >agentive form (this, and a few others): agent x1 makes restraint x2 restrain >x3, rather than the expected agent x1 restrains x2 with x3 These are the types of things that will undoubtedly kill your formal scheme. >#sisti sti cease x1 [agent] ceases/stops/halts activity/process/state x2 >#[not necessarily completing it] 1g 117 (cf. fanmo, mulno, cfari, denpa) ># x2 ceases (not necessarily completing) > >We never did find out why this was not parallel with {cfari}. I don't even >recall a rationale being presented. What was the story here? That's the way JCB did it, and we never changed it. cfari was a gismu "invented" by me because JCB did not distinguish well between initiation and origin as a meaning of "start" and had malglico lujvo. I assume this is a vote for change. >#tcica tic deceive 'cheat, trick' x1 (agent/event) deceives/dupes/fools >#x2 about subject x3 by method/actiond tisna to fill a glass 1/2 full. (Hmm, when a glass is full, is it culno. We usually say it is full when it isn't but is mostly so, and we don't want to risk spillage.) And perhaps also to fill a plate (for which "full" can only be defined by when stuff starts falling off). Of course, you have to watch out that you don't overlap with setca as well.