Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by NEBULA.SYSTEMSZ.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 13 Oct 1993 21:02:57 -0400 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 13 Oct 1993 21:02:39 -0400 Message-Id: <199310140102.AA07811@eli.CS.YALE.EDU> Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7338; Wed, 13 Oct 93 21:00:45 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 3009; Wed, 13 Oct 93 21:03:27 EDT Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 21:00:50 EDT Reply-To: Jorge LLambias Sender: Lojban list From: Jorge LLambias Subject: more on fat gismu X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Erik Rauch Status: RO X-Status: X-From-Space-Date: Wed Oct 13 17:00:50 1993 X-From-Space-Address: @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET la lojbab cusku di'e > When you view things as movies, it becomes much eaiser to > realize how many variables are related implicvitly in the concept, and the > justification for fat gismu gets rather more understandable. Here's a fat verb-gismu: {cikre}. What's the rationale for x3 and x4? cikre repair 'fix' x1 repairs/mends/fixes x2 for use x3 by user x4 > As English speakers, we just feel more comfortable wiht verbs having more > places. But in Lojban EVERY gismu is a verb. (And a noun, and an adjec > tive ...). I still think the "verb" {sorcu} is fat: sorcu soc sro store x1 is a store/deposit/supply/reserve of materials x2 in containment x3 The idea of container, {vasru}, seems to be very marginal to "supply", and in many cases may be absent. The supply need not even be located in a single place. > I'd like to see commentary that explicitly takes this factor into account, > and it will be collected for Nora, who may eventually get caught up and > boy does she have a lot of comments ... I don't see any problem with this factor. It is natural that concepts that are represented by pure nouns/adjectives in NLs will have in general fewer places. This doesn't convert them into nouns/adjectives. There are a few short verb-type gismu, as well e.g. senci sec sneeze x1 sneezes [intransitive verb] > BTW, people are focussingon the klama related gismu of motion, but I am far > more unsure that we have done good by the other half of the words of motion, > which include punji, benji, mrilu, lebna, cpacu, muvdu and a few others. I'm not sure why {lebna} is here, it seems the opposite of {dunda}, and {cpacu} is also doubtful as a word of motion. The only one I don't like from that list is {muvdu}. I'd prefer it without an x1 and use {muvgau} for that concept. (Removing x1 from {muvdu} would achieve what I wanted by removing x5 from {klama}.) I can't believe that you can't talk in Lojban about movement without bringing up a cause. co'o mi'e xorxes