Message-Id: <MAILQUEUE2-102.931008050039.384@hylkn1.Helsinki.FI>
Date:         Thu, 7 Oct 1993 22:59:43 -0400
Reply-To: bob@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Sender: vilva
From: "Robert J. Chassell" <bob@GNU.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: deleting places
To: Veijo Vilva <VILVA@viikki21.helsinki.fi>
Content-Length: 2203
Lines: 52

John Cowan says:

    [Even if you elide] the x2, x4, and x5 places [of "klama"], ...it
    is MEANINGFUL to talk of a destination, a route, and a means of
    transport in this particular case (which I will call an >instance<
    of the selbri "klama").  If there were no destination whatsoever,
    "klama" would not be correct.

I agree entirely.  This is fundamental to all the Loglans.  These are
languages based on the notion of the predicate calculus.  All places
are part of a meaning, even when the place is not filled overtly in an
utterance.  More precisely, Loglan presumes that you cannot conceive
of the meaning without all the places, any more than you can conceive
of 2 + ... without adding the second place.  Sometimes, however, you
don't overtly fill a place.

    > Rather than lean gismu or fat lujvo, I argue for weaking place
    > structure.  That each successive place of the word is weaker in
    > its tie to the concept.

No.  English is somewhat like this, but not a Loglan.  In the Loglans,
each argument is equally meaningful; but some arguments are spoken
more often than others.

Circumstances control how often you fill in a place.  For example,
John commented:

    ... how often do we think of "gerku" as a 2-place relationship
    between an individual dog and its species/breed?

In normal life, I talk about breeds of dog only once or twice a year.
Not often at all.  But it just happens that I have recently been
talking frequently about my dog's breed.  Circumstances: a pipeline
company is laying a pipeline across our land.  Every couple of days, a
new work crew comes by.  On each crew, someone is sure to ask what
kind of dog I'm with.  ("Comy is a genuine mutt from the pound", I
say.  I don't have any lojban materials; perhaps someone could attempt
a translation?)  The infrequently spoken places are both meaningful
and filled.

As John Cowan says:

    We should remove only places that clearly overlap other places or
    that are implicitly filled by other lujvo members taken as
    events...

Good advice.

    Robert J. Chassell               bob@gnu.ai.mit.edu
    Rattlesnake Mountain Road        (413) 298-4725
    Stockbridge, MA 01262-0693 USA