Return-Path: Received: from kejal-9101.pc by xiron with uucp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0omG6f-0000osC; Mon, 11 Oct 93 07:47 EET Received: from kruuna.helsinki.fi by xiron with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0olxA7-0000osC; Sun, 10 Oct 93 11:33 EET Received: from charon2-gw.pc.Helsinki.FI by kruuna.helsinki.fi with SMTP id AA27128 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Sun, 10 Oct 1993 11:32:47 +0200 Received: From HYLKN1/WORKQUEUE2 by charon2-gw.pc.Helsinki.FI via Charon 3.4 with IPX id 100.931010113127.384; 10 Oct 93 11:32:21 +0200 Message-Id: Received: From FINHUTC.hut.fi by charon2-gw.pc.Helsinki.FI via Charon 3.4 with SMTP id 102.931010113109.352; 10 Oct 93 11:31:28 +-02-01 Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP R1.2.2MX) with BSMTP id 0813; Sun, 10 Oct 93 11:32:14 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 0811; Sun, 10 Oct 1993 11:32:10 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0643; Sun, 10 Oct 1993 10:31:33 +0100 Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1993 05:29:04 -0400 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: vilva From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: vehicle/means places on various gismu, litru vs. klama X-To: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU X-Cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 618 Lines: 13 the means of the ball going from the hands to the lamp is "lenu se cecla", or "lenu se renro". The means of the sun travelling around the earth is lenu le carna terdi cu tcica le kanla. In the latter case, since there is no REAL motion taking place, you need to make it clear with some kind of indication of illusion or apparentness (I'm not thinking of a good expression for the latter right now - maybe what we are talking about is merely litru simsa). It occurs to me that similarity and analogy may have enough power in them to deal with place deletion a la zi'o. But the mechanism still seems clumsy. lojbab