Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by NEBULA.SYSTEMSZ.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Thu, 7 Oct 1993 11:51:47 -0400 Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Thu, 7 Oct 1993 11:51:43 -0400 Message-Id: <199310071551.AA01230@eli.CS.YALE.EDU> Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3406; Thu, 07 Oct 93 11:49:41 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 7482; Thu, 07 Oct 93 11:43:39 EDT Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 11:23:38 -0400 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: Lean Lujvo and fat gismu X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Erik Rauch In-Reply-To: <199310062335.AA02219@access.digex.net> from "Jorge LLambias" at Oct 6, 93 07:34:00 pm Status: RO X-Status: X-From-Space-Date: Thu Oct 7 07:23:38 1993 X-From-Space-Address: @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET mi'e .djan. .i la xorxes. cusku di'e > > 1) mi klama fi le frasygu'e > > I come from France > > > > 2) mi cliva le frasygu'e > > I leave France. > > > > Just to add some confusion here. > > mi ca cliva le frasygu'e > > Does this mean that I'm leaving France right now? In the sense that you are now crossing the border, not necessarily. In the sense that you are now engaged in a journey that began in France, yes. You might have already crossed the border or you might not yet have reached it. > mi ca klama fi le frasygu'e > > mi ca ba'o cliva le frasygu'e > > Are these two compatible? > > If they are, then {cliva} doesn't seem to be equivalent to {klama be zi'o}. > > If they aren't, then it seems wrong to translate {cliva} as "leave". They are compatible if you accept that the {nu klama} isn't necessarily coterminous with the {nu cliva}. You might be said to have ceased leaving before you have arrived at your (implied by "klama") destination. There can be no firm answer to such a question: it is a variant of the "heap" paradox. -- John Cowan sharing account for now e'osai ko sarji la lojban.