Return-Path: Received: from kejal-9101.pc by xiron with uucp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m000EdP-0000osC; Thu, 1 Jan 70 17:37 EET Received: from kruuna.helsinki.fi by xiron with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0001Tl-0000osC; Thu, 1 Jan 70 03:34 EET Received: from charon2-gw.pc.Helsinki.FI by kruuna.helsinki.fi with SMTP id AA18134 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 7 Oct 1993 17:49:12 +0200 Received: From HYLKN1/WORKQUEUE2 by charon2-gw.pc.Helsinki.FI via Charon 3.4 with IPX id 100.931007174803.320; 07 Oct 93 17:50:29 +0200 Message-Id: Received: From kruuna.helsinki.fi by charon2-gw.pc.Helsinki.FI via Charon 3.4 with SMTP id 102.931007174744.512; 07 Oct 93 17:49:36 +-02-01 Received: from finhutc.hut.fi by kruuna.helsinki.fi with SMTP id AA17350 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 7 Oct 1993 17:42:33 +0200 Message-Id: <199310071542.AA17350@kruuna.helsinki.fi> Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP R1.2.2MX) with BSMTP id 0153; Thu, 07 Oct 93 17:42:48 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 0151; Thu, 7 Oct 1993 17:42:43 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8289; Thu, 7 Oct 1993 16:42:08 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 11:23:38 -0400 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: vilva From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: Lean Lujvo and fat gismu X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva In-Reply-To: <199310062335.AA02219@access.digex.net> from "Jorge LLambias" at Oct 6, 93 07:34:00 pm Content-Length: 1218 Lines: 39 mi'e .djan. .i la xorxes. cusku di'e > > 1) mi klama fi le frasygu'e > > I come from France > > > > 2) mi cliva le frasygu'e > > I leave France. > > > > Just to add some confusion here. > > mi ca cliva le frasygu'e > > Does this mean that I'm leaving France right now? In the sense that you are now crossing the border, not necessarily. In the sense that you are now engaged in a journey that began in France, yes. You might have already crossed the border or you might not yet have reached it. > mi ca klama fi le frasygu'e > > mi ca ba'o cliva le frasygu'e > > Are these two compatible? > > If they are, then {cliva} doesn't seem to be equivalent to {klama be zi'o}. > > If they aren't, then it seems wrong to translate {cliva} as "leave". They are compatible if you accept that the {nu klama} isn't necessarily coterminous with the {nu cliva}. You might be said to have ceased leaving before you have arrived at your (implied by "klama") destination. There can be no firm answer to such a question: it is a variant of the "heap" paradox. -- John Cowan sharing account for now e'osai ko sarji la lojban.