Message-Id: <MAILQUEUE2-102.931014020245.416@hylkn1.Helsinki.FI>
Date:         Wed, 13 Oct 1993 21:00:50 EDT
Reply-To: Jorge LLambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>
Sender: vilva
From: Jorge LLambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>
Subject:      more on fat gismu
To: Veijo Vilva <VILVA@viikki21.helsinki.fi>
Content-Length: 2027
Lines: 51

la lojbab cusku di'e

>  When you view things as movies, it becomes much eaiser to
> realize how many variables are related implicvitly in the concept, and the
> justification for fat gismu gets rather more understandable.

Here's a fat verb-gismu: {cikre}. What's the rationale for x3 and x4?

cikre              repair               'fix'
x1 repairs/mends/fixes x2 for use x3 by user x4

> As English speakers, we just feel more comfortable wiht verbs having more
> places.  But in Lojban EVERY gismu is a verb.  (And a noun, and an adjec
> tive ...).

I still think the "verb" {sorcu} is fat:

sorcu soc sro      store
x1 is a store/deposit/supply/reserve of materials x2 in containment x3

The idea of container, {vasru}, seems to be very marginal to "supply",
and in many cases may be absent. The supply need not even be located in
a single place.

> I'd like to see commentary that explicitly takes this factor into account,
> and it will be collected for Nora, who may eventually get caught up and
> boy does she have a lot of comments ...

I don't see any problem with this factor. It is natural that concepts that are
represented by pure nouns/adjectives in NLs will have in general fewer places.
This doesn't convert them into nouns/adjectives. There are a few short
verb-type gismu, as well e.g.

senci sec          sneeze
x1 sneezes [intransitive verb]

> BTW, people are focussingon the klama related gismu of motion, but I am far
> more unsure that we have done good by the other half of the words of motion,
> which include punji, benji, mrilu, lebna, cpacu, muvdu and a few others.

I'm not sure why {lebna} is here, it seems the opposite of {dunda}, and {cpacu}
is also doubtful as a word of motion.

The only one I don't like from that list is {muvdu}. I'd prefer it without
an x1 and use {muvgau} for that concept. (Removing x1 from {muvdu} would
achieve what I wanted by removing x5 from {klama}.) I can't believe that you
can't talk in Lojban about movement without bringing up a cause.


co'o mi'e xorxes