Message-Id: <199310141752.AA12274@eli.CS.YALE.EDU>
Date:         Thu, 14 Oct 1993 13:48:14 -0400
Reply-To: Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU>
From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Subject:      Re: more on fat gismu
To: Erik Rauch <rauch>
In-Reply-To:  <199310141121.AA06969@access.digex.net> from "Logical Language               Group" at Oct 14, 93 07:21:17 am
Status: RO

> You are correct that Loglan/Lojban has never had cau
> we don't have "causeless" motion.  Self-motion, we do
> have.  If people want muvdu to be non-agentive, it can be considered.

I support this change, following Nick and Jorge.  The resulting place
structure becomes "x1 moves to x2 from x3 via route x4", with the old
place structure available as "muvgau".  This allows us to talk about things
that "just move", like the moon across the sky.  By Aristotelian (i.e
intuitive) physics and cosmology, the moon moves as a result of its own
nature, not because something moves it.

> sorcu has the containment place because you need something to determine
 whether
> something is part of one sorcu or another.  If you store something in
> one of three piles, is this one sorcu or three.  I suspect that "containment"
> is a bad choice of words, since lo darxi pamei should be a valid value.

I think the difficulty arises because many things we are inclined to call
{sorcu} are really {te sorcu}, as with Nick's example of a battery.
The x1 place is conceptual, the x3 place physical.

> [cikre]

Here, OTOH, I suspect there is a sumti-raising: x4 is just the x1 place
of the "pilno" that implicitly appears in x3.  I suggest x4 be dropped
in favor of a generalized x3, something like "purpose/standard".  A third
place is needed, because you need a reference point to know if tinkering
with something constitutes fixing it or breaking it.

--
John Cowan              sharing account <lojbab@access.digex.net> for now
                e'osai ko sarji la lojban.