From <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI,@SEARN.SUNET.SE:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Mon Mar 8 17:18:18 2010 Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI,@SEARN.SUNET.SE:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0owYgc-0000PYC; Mon, 8 Nov 93 17:39 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP R1.2.2MX) with BSMTP id 2005; Mon, 08 Nov 93 17:39:39 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 2004; Mon, 8 Nov 1993 17:39:38 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8011; Mon, 8 Nov 1993 16:38:50 +0100 Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 02:12:20 +1100 Reply-To: Nick Nicholas Sender: Lojban list From: Nick Nicholas Subject: Re: more Eaton, anyone? To: lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET Cc: Lojban Mailing List In-Reply-To: <199310050609.AA07448@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU> from "Logical Language Group" at Oct 5, 93 02:06:11 am Content-Length: 11203 Lines: 455 To Logical Language Group respond I thus: #Here are 4 more pages of Eaton And they are impossible! This is my attempt (given that permission has just been turned off for Nethack here, I've little else to do this time of the night. Except sleep. And who needs that?) #avenger (G) Ra:cher (S) vengador venfu #customhouse officer (F) douanier (G) Zo:llner, Zollbeamte # (S) aduanaero This is an import tax official: "import" cteki kurji. "import" is bartu gugde krasi benji. "krasi" is OK for source, but I can see no corresponding word for goal. I propose "fanmo": export would then be bartu gugde fanmo benji. A single word for "douanier" would be bargu'ekrabe'itekykurji #improvise (S) improvisar skucabyfi'i (cusku cabna finti) #inkwell (F) encrier (G) Tintenfass (S) tintero ximvau #setting (n)(of sun, etc.) (F) coucher (n) (G) Untergang (S) fondo nu canci #specify (S) especificar tecxu'a --- steci xusra, or tilski --- tcila skicu. I suspect the former is a bad translation. #unchangeable, immutable (S) inmutable nalcenba #woodwork (F) boiserie (G) Ta:felung # (S) entablado, maderamen Panelling is the translation for the French and German. Hm. Not mudri nilce, because that's not doors and walls. mudri dinjypau? #accusative (S) accusative What is a case? a sumti klesi perhaps? If so, this is a tolgasnu sumkle, to the first approximation #adverb (S) adverbio Ick. selbri seltanru? #Belgian (F) belge, flamand (thereby suggesting a distinct # concept (Flemish) natmrbelje, natmrbelgi,e #bookseller (S) librero cukta vencu #brutality (F) brutalite' (G) Roheit ka kusru #cartridge (F) cartouche (G) Patrone (S) cartucho sabji tanxe, for its most general meaning #expulsion (S) expulsio'n nu livbai #idealism (S) idealismo selkri stodi tarti #indiscretion, imprudence (S) imprudencia (G) Taktlosigkeit ka xlali ke jikca jdice #innate (S) innato jinzi #insurgent (n) (F) insurge' (n) (G) Aufsta:ndische # (S) insurgente, insurrecto turni damba #islander (S) insular, islen~o daplu xabju #Jesuit (S) jesuita jdaprenrxiesu,ita #multiplicity (S) multiplicidad (G) Mannigfaltigkeit ka vrici #obelisk (S) obelisco jesni rokci #ostentation (G) Gepra:nge (S) ostentacio'n mabla ke jarco tarti #pigeonhole (S) casier (G) Fach (S) encasillado pelji vasru selci, dacru #realist (S) relaista tcini tinbe tarti #upstart (F) parvenu(-e) (n) (G) Emporko:mmling # (S) advenedizo mabla ke suksa nobli (Parvenues are a class phenomenon, and it is not their new riches that is begrudged them but their not fitting a class role. I suggest nobli be expanded in meaning to something useful: not just aristocrats and such past relics, but the upper classes in general. #affected (F) affecte', affecter, manie're (G) affektiert # (S) artificioso mabla ke nalfadni tarti. No, that's wierd. maljgi ke nalfadni tarti, perhaps. #garlic (F) ail (S) ajo (G) Knoblauch slunrxalio (alium) #tablecloth (F) nappe (G) Tischtuch (S) mantel jubme bukpu (jbubu'u) #administrative (G) Verwaltungs- (S) administrativo ganzu jitro ckaji #aggressor (S) agresor gunta, bradi #billion (F) milliard gigdo #neatness (F) nettete' (G) Sauberkeit (S) esmero, limpieza ka cnici #sceptic (adj) (G) skeptisch, ungla:ubig (S) esce'ptico senpi tarti, senpi #shorthand, stenography (G) Stenographie (S) taquigrafia nu sutra ciska #sortie (military) (F) sortie (G) Ausfall (S) salida nu guntygunta #stupor (F) stupeur (G) beta:ubung # (S) estupefaccio'n, estupor selcfipu cando #undecided (G) unentschieden (S) indeciso naljdice #cipher(vb) (S) cifrar kanji; mifra gasnu #ermine (S) armin~o skaprxermina #expansive (S) expansivo ganra, barda #frivolity (G) Leichtsinnigkeit # (S) ligereza, devaneo, liviandad #(all 3 Spanish words are listed as much more frequent than the English; #is there a distinction, Jorge??) ka toljunri #generalize (S) generalizar suctygau #geometric (S) geome'trico geometry is tarmi saske, or tarmi cmaci #inexpressible, ineffable (F) indicible (G) unsa:glich # (S) inefable, indecible ka ka'e selsku kei bancu #penetration (G) Durchdringung (S) penetracio'n nu setca #predisposed, predispose (F) disposer (d')avance, pre'disposer # (G) veranlagt (S)predispuesto This is the same as inclined, which both Jorge and I have long tried to translate succinctly into Lojban, since it is a core concept in Esperanto (-ema). #psychological (S) psicolo'gico The target of study of psychology, the psyche, is le menli, so this is menli ckaji, menkai #stiffness, rigidity (F) raideur (G) Starre (S) rigidez ka tinsa #syndicate (S) sindicado (F) syndicat # (I think a culturally neutral word for "Mafia" # would be in order, given that the term is used in Russia # for the organized criminals, with no suggestion of # Italian background. Also perhaps one for kids' gangs # or "crews" moth criminal and non-criminal # (i.e. Boy Scouts ???) Syndicate actually primarily refers to labour unions, I'd imagine, which is gunka terganzu. We already have bende for the latter purpose you suggest. zekri terganzu would do for a Mafia. #arcade (G) Laube, Laubengang (S) arcada bargu drudi pluta #armpit (F) aisselle (G) Achselho:hle (S) axila janco cnita #barrenness, sterility (G) Unfruchtbarkeit (S) esterilidad ka tolferti #candidacy (S) candidatura ka selcuxydji (weak, I know) #crater (S) cra'ter "meteor" kevna; "meteor" is kensa rokci. kesroike'a. For volcanoes, pojma'ake'a. As a generalisation, dertu brabolke'a #diplomacy (S) diplomacia jansu ciste #estuary (G) Fo:rde (S) ria rirxe fanmo (rirxe moklu has been used) #hussar (F) hussard (G) Husar (S) hu'sar soncrxusara, xirsoi (light cavalry) #impertinence (F) impertinence (G) Frechheit, Unverfrorenheit jikca maldarsi #intuition (G) Eingebung (S) intuicio'n jijnu #mobility (F) mobilite' (G) Beweglichkeit # (S) flexibilidad ka ka'e se muvdu #phoenix (S) fe'nix cipnrfoinike, cridrfoinike #superhuman (G) u:bermenschlich (S) sobrehumano remna se kakne bancu #trellis (F) espalier (G) Spalier (S) enrejado greku #volt (needs a lujvo) I suspect it needs a le'avla. #attorney-general (G) Staatsanwalt (S) procurador general ralju ke flalu kurji #anonymous (S) ano'nimo nalseljunselfi'i #archipelago (S) archipielgo daplu girzu #bodice (F) corsage (G) Mieder (S) jubo'n jarki skori creka (though sensibly this should be a le'avla) #collective (S) colectivo girzu piromei ckaji #composer (G) Komponist (S) compositor zgifi'i #conjugal (G) ehelich (S) conyugal simspeni ckaji #infinity (S) infinidad cinmi #jurisprudence (G) Rechtspflege (S) jurisprudencia flalu saske #pedant (S) pedante mabla ke tcila jundi #setting (adj) (F) couchant (S) ponienente (G) untergehen canci (this is sunset again, right?) #in shorthand (G) stenographisch seke sutra ciska #thinker (F) penseur (G) Denker (S) pensador # (I think that this is something more than merely lo pensi) banli pensi? pensi gunka? #biblical (S) biblico saurxebro; jegvycku ckaji #contradictory (G) widersprechend (S) contradictorio simnatfe. Which btw introduces an engrained ambivalence in Lojban: do sentences refute, or only their utterers? They're two distinct thematic roles (instrument and agent), but they're so often conflated in natural language, I think Lojban is a bit foolhardy to counter this tendency, as it does. #dreamer (F) re'veur (G) Tra:umer (S) son~ador # (likewise this one and lo senva) senva tarti, then #flexibility (F) souplesse (G) Schmiegsamkeit (S) flexibilidad ka to'e tisna #optimism (S) optimismo pacna tarti #proscribe (G) a:chten (S) proscribir to'e curmi #reconstitute (G) erneue(r)n (S) reconstituir, reconstruir The German is "renew; restore; renovate". It's not cnino zbasu, since that's building fresh, not afresh. krefu zbasu, I suppose. #applicable (G) anwendbar (S) aplicable, extensivo ka'e se pilno lenu... #brushwood (F) broussaille (G) Untewrholz (S) maleza cmatricu #idyll (S) idilio I guess the Eaton texts were culled from the purple prose of the day. pluka tcini. No need to be as purple. #Musselman (i.e. Moslem) (S) musulma'n muslo #Peruvian (adj) (S) peruano natmrperu #refractory (F) re'fractaire (G) wiederspenstig # (S) reacio, refractario xarnu; jai nandu. I'd never heard of this word; the Eaton translators seem to have gone out of their way to be recherche... #urgency (G) Eile (S) urgencia ka clira sarcu #vice-president (S) vicepresidente vipsi jatna #impetuosity (G) Ungestu:m (S) impetu ka suksa tarti #incompatible (G) unvereinbar (S) incompatible na'e simymapti #irreparable (G) unheilbar (S) irremediable na'eka'e se cikre #I may have to #get more selective about adding other-language translation, so I need to #ask whether people are ever getting anything out of the French or #German. Occasionally --- four or five times per post. Others' comments are solicited. === Momenton senpretende paseman mi retenis kaj # NICK NICHOLAS. Melbourne Uni, kultis kvazaux & Australia. Now with moustache. senhorlogxan elizeon # nsn@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au (Dume: & >nsn@krang.vis.mu.oz.au< [Victor Sadler, _Memkritiko_ 90] # nsn@mundil.cs.mu.oz.au