Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI,@SEARN.SUNET.SE:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0ouqHg-0000PaC; Thu, 4 Nov 93 00:02 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP R1.2.2MX) with BSMTP id 6588; Thu, 04 Nov 93 00:02:45 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 6586; Thu, 4 Nov 1993 00:02:44 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0949; Wed, 3 Nov 1993 23:01:52 +0100 Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 13:52:13 EST Reply-To: "Robert J. Chassell" Sender: Lojban list From: "Robert J. Chassell" Subject: Re: TECH: more thoughts on zi'o X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva In-Reply-To: <9311031327.AA05744@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu> (message from Richard Kennaway on Wed, 3 Nov 1993 13:30:12 GMT) Content-Length: 2545 Lines: 76 ... If a relation like that which "klama" names is taken to be an atomic concept, that either holds between a tuple of things -- including a destination -- or does not, then zi'o makes no sense. ... How does one set about deciding whether it is meaningful to zi'o, say, the first place of klama? Or all five? The same way any other *new* word become comes defined. I think of {zi'o} as an ad hoc method to define new predicates. You could do the same thing with a borrowing or nonce creation; the advantage of using a pre-existing predication is that it provides your listener with a memory hook. This may help your listener to figure out what you mean. (As a practical matter, you yourself may be the listener: you may be attempting to invent a new concept by working from existing concepts.) Presumably, if you do come up with a frequently-used new predication, you won't continue to use an existing predicate with zi'o, but will construct a new one. Consider the predicate P(a, b, c, d, e) where P is a relationship involving movement/travel/coming/going and a focal entity b destination c origin d route e means A means, a route, an origin, a destination, a focal entity are all part of a relationship involving movement/travel/coming/going. Suppose you come up with the notion that destination and origin are irrelevant. You can produce a new predicate P'(a, zi'o, zi'o, d, e) where P' is a relationship involving movement/travel/coming/going (as before) and a focal entity b [removed] c [removed] d route e means A means, a route, a focal entity are all part of a relationship involving movement/travel/coming/going. Try it out this new predicate. It seems useful. Create a new brivla. (As it happens, this `new' predication already exists as a Lojban gismu, so you don't have to invent it.) klama kla come x1 comes/goes to destination x2 from origin x3 via route x4 using means/vehicle x5 litru li'u travel x1 travels via route x2 using means/vehicle x3; BAI enables you to add places. Lujvo-making enables you to add, remove, and/or change places. zi'o enables you to remove places. This set of features looks symmetrical and exhaustive to me. Robert J. Chassell bob@gnu.ai.mit.edu Rattlesnake Mountain Road bob@grackle.stockbridge.ma.us Stockbridge, MA 01262-0693 USA (413) 298-4725