Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0p0bvC-0000PaC; Fri, 19 Nov 93 21:55 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP R1.2.2MX) with BSMTP id 2554; Fri, 19 Nov 93 21:55:26 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 2553; Fri, 19 Nov 1993 21:55:26 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3734; Fri, 19 Nov 1993 20:54:33 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 18:41:04 +0000 Reply-To: ucleaar Sender: Lojban list From: ucleaar Subject: Re: proposal for new member of SE X-To: lojban@CUVMA.BITNET To: Veijo Vilva In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 18 Nov 93 11:02:50 GMT.) Content-Length: 1586 Lines: 40 > > Could we not instead have an additional SE (with rafsi) that means: > > exchange 1st & last places > >Used recursively, this would allow a different way of getting at > >places beyond the 5th. > >For example, if this new member of SE were "xehe", rafsi "xez", > >then the lujvo for "x1 is the vehicle of an event of going" > >would be "xeznunkla". > > .i'enai .oi > > This is rampant ad-hocery. I also don't see how it could be > used recursively. Nor do I now. I got confused. What I was thinking of was a SE that would, rather, make the last place the first & shunt all the others along by 1. If this is ad hoc, it is not adversely so. It would not, I think, change the grammar, as "xehe" cd be included in SE. In fact, more additions to SE could be very useful. For example, often the place structure 41235 is more fitting to one's purposes than 42315 (which ve gives), but getting 41235 is very complicated. I once worked out all the SE combos necessary for all possible permutations of 5 places, & in a few cases 5 SEs were needed. OK, if you want something really scrambled like 53241 then FA is more helpful, but 51234 is a very natural sequence & one wishes it were easier to achieve. Ideally, there would be two types of SE - one that exchanges two places & one that promotes a place to first but leaves the sequence of the remainder unchanged. In addition, an extra SE shd be added for accessing the last place. > I see nothing wrong with using zei. It's unzipfean. That's something *very* wrong with having to use zei. ---- And KO JBOBANPEHO