Message-Id: <m0pCFQp-0000PYC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Tue, 21 Dec 1993 17:20:27 -0500
Reply-To:     Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
From:         Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Subject:      Re: POssessives
To:         lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
In-Reply-To:  <199312211101.AA10276@access2.digex.net> from "Logical Language
              Group" at Dec 21, 93 06:01:40 am
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la lojbab. cusku di'e

> I think JCB may have discussed word order decisions like this back in
> Loglan 2, his 'theory' book that was reprinted in The Loglanist vol. 1
> and 2 in various excerpts.  As I recall, Loglan originally had a word
> order situation more unlike English, but JCB couldn't make it work right.
> Cowan always seems to have his TLs more handy, and can probably check
> quicker than I.

I can't identify anything that matches this rather vague description.
Word order is discussed in TL1/2:54-62, which is a reprint of L2 chapter 6
(1970).  I have earlier quoted JCB's rationale for SVO order, which
boils down to two items:  firstly, Chinese, English, Russian, Spanish, French
and German all prefer it, more or less, with Hindi and Japanese using SOV
(and Classical Arabic VSO, with the modern dialects basically SVO).

The other point is that using SVO with two-place predicates, "xP", "Py", and
"xPy" are all distinct without need for case-marking "x" and "y"; whereas in
an SOV language we can't distinguish between "xP" and "yP" without a case
marker.  VSO (which is the alternative JCB considered) has the same trouble
When there are more than 2 places in a predicate, this argument breaks down,
of course.

As for possession specifically (which is what Colin was talking about in his
original posting), JCB claims that Chinese and Hindi are GN-only, with
Russian, Spanish, French, and German NG-only, English mixed.  ("GN" =
genitive/possessive before its noun; "NG" = genitive/possessive after its
noun.)  Loglan is therefore also mixed.

But these data are bogus:  German is probably more often GN than English is,
and French is mixed, though more biased toward NG than English.  I suspect
that Spanish is also mixed.  (Jorge?)

Greenberg universal 2, cited by JCB, says that prepositional languages tend to
the NG order, so he (JCB) believes that "le broda pe le brode" will tend to be
dominant.  So far we don't have enough data from enough speakers to tell.

--
John Cowan              sharing account <lojbab@access.digex.net> for now
                e'osai ko sarji la lojban.