Message-Id: <199312090054.AA02176@eli.CS.YALE.EDU>
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 1993 20:18:58 EST
Reply-To: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU>
From: Jorge Llambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: responses to Jorge on fat gismu
To: Erik Rauch <rauch>
Status: RO

[sorcu; diklo; cpedu; misno]

Jorge's comments on some of lojbab's
> Responses to some of Jorge's comments on fat gismu
>
> >4- The x3 of {sorcu} restricts it to supplies stored in a single place.
> >Since {vasru} is already there for container, I don't think {sorcu}
> >needs to be so restricted.  In general, supplies need not be in a
> >container.
>
> Your discussion with Chassell clearly showed that there are two
> different concepts here.  Yours is sabji, for which x1 was ambiguous
> between the supply and the supplier.  I have clarified this, and
> specified sabgau for agentive supply.

The point I tried to make was that sorcu, as an accumulation (not as
a sabji), was more useful without an intrinsic container/site/location.

> >8- I don't see why the x3 of {diklu} is not a part of its x2.
>
> diklu?  I don't see how this comment could apply to diklo, for which x2
> and x3 MUST be different.  A locus is a specific, which needs an
> associated larger and more general range in order to be meaningful.

--------------------------
diklo     klo      local
x1 is local to x2;  x1 is confined to locus x2 within range x3
[indicates a specific location/value within a range; e.g. a hits b.
 What is the locality on b that a hits?];
--------------------------

I can't fit {diklo} in that example.
It seems to translate as {abu darxi by fo ma}
This explains the places of darxi, but not those of diklo. I suppose
that the event of hitting is not confined to a locality on b.

Why can't the range x3 be specified as a part of x2, when needed?
Could we have a couple of examples? Since x1 is confined to x2, what
is the point of adding the additional confinement of x2 to x3?

[...]
> Note also that cpedu has an x4 manner, whereas the manner is implicit in
> pikci (respectful, supplicant)

I understand pikci now, I suppose I was confused by the similar meaning
of cpedu having x2 and x3 interchanged. Does this imply some kind of
emphasis, or is it just a calque of the English expressions?

I would like to start a campaign against the x4 of cpedu, is anyone
interested? Bob? :)
The only gismu with "manner" places (besides tarti, where it's the whole
point of the gismu) that I could find are:

cpedu     cpe      request
x1 requests/asks/petitions/solicits for x2 of/from x3 in manner/form x4
[also demand (= mi'ecpe)];

rinsa              greet
x1 (agent) greets/hails/[welcomes/says hello to]/responds to arrival of x2
in manner x3 (action)

I can more or less understand it in the case of rinsa, it could even be
rephrased as "by action x3", but this is not the meaning in the case of
cpedu. It seems to call for an attitude. Why not leave it to attitudinals?
What kind of sumti would fill the manner place? Isn't there an attitudinal
that would do the job better? And if the manner is an important part of
cpedu, why is it less important for, say, cusku?

> >15- I was surprised that {misno} doesn't have an x3 place, but that's
> >ok.
>
> It is possible to be simply well-known or renowned, especially in a
> smaller community, without being well-known for some particular
> feature/event/trait/etc.

You knew what I meant as x3, and presumably anyone would understand it
if filled with something, so in some sense the place is already there :)
(I can't believe I'm arguing to add a place)
Are you saying that a well-known/renowned person in a small community
would be just as misno as Madonna? Couldn't we say that they're misno
for their good character or because they're active in the community
or something? (more likely because they're somewhat moneyed, but let's
not be so cynical :).


Jorge